Brotherhood Overhaul (Conceptual Stage)

[Vaernus]

 

For artillery, they'd need some heavy duty shells to beat through the hull of Prydwen. The artillery you build seems like, at best, WW2-style guns. The Prydwen seems pretty sturdy. Not to mention 8 settlements close enough to fire on it, and repeated barrages while surviving a BoS response taking down the artillery. Unless we're talking this thing is a Zeppelin made of flammable wood and paper, the inside looks like its a lot of strong metal for the hull. I can believe Liberty Prime's laser can take it out easily, but not artillery.

.

 

Actually the minuteman artillery looks like a great war era heavy mortar such as the Minenwerfer M 15. This is probably the worst possible weapon for taking down aircraft, but if the minutemen could rustle up some timed fuses for air burst, 2 or three rounds exploding within 50 metres of the Prydwen would be a mission kill at the minimum. A direct hit would be a catastrophic loss. But that's real world logic, not sure how applicable that'd be to fallout.http://forums.nexusmods.com/public/style_images/underground/attachicon.gif300px-22,5_cm_Minenwerfer_M.17.JPG

 

I'm not that sure about the BoS controlling settlements though, it seems 'out of character' for want of a better word. Actually holding land requires vastly more manpower and resources than the mobile strike operations the BoS currently conducts. If the BoS decided to annex the commonwealth they'd either need to co-opt the minutemen or create an equivalent the administer in it's stead.

 

Anyway, there are three possible scenarios here

 

1) Player doesn't restore minutemen, joins BoS has no interest in founding settlements.

2) Player doesn't restore minutemen, joins BoS sets up 'unaligned settlements'.

 

Neither of these require mod support.

 

3) Player doesn't restore minutemen, joins BoS sets up BoS aligned settlements

 

At the minimum some modification to spawns and settlement building (more BoS patrols, BoS skins on turrets ect) needed.

 

3) Player becomes general, restores minutemen, joins BoS.

 

Currently nothing happens here, Id like to see the previously mentioned negotiations take place. Three possible outcomes.

1. Annexation: the Minutemen become a vassal state to the brotherhood, they pay a high price in resources and manpower but get few benefits. The brotherhood become unpopular frequent attacks by 'Free Minutemen/Free Commonwealth citizens. Low settlement happiness.
2. Alliance: the minutemen and BoS provide mutual assistance resources and manpower from the commonwealth, training and low level tech from the brotherhood.
3. Peace: Live and Let Live. The status quo
4. War : The player sides with one side against the other

This looks to require a fair bit of work but nothing drastic.

 

 

 

 

Controlling settlements is already something the BoS can do via the Teagan missions, but you lose all ability to manage them currently. I don't think the BoS really "controls" anything or has any desire to do so. With regards to the Capital Wasteland, they have effectively become an Ordensstaat due to being the only true superpower there, and this allows them to scavenge tech without resistance while also increasing their ranks via sponsorship. I'd think the same process would apply in the Commonwealth: remove any major threats, and then the populace largely does whatever provided they don't interfere with their operations. They'll clean out any real threat to humanity in the area, scavenge their tech, and give them an avenue to join them via sponsorship but have no real care about what the people are doing if they stay out of their way. In return, the people live a largely safe life without any real danger and can start civilizing the area. Provides a huge amount of stability for them.

 

With their firepower, they don't need much post-MQ. All major threats are removed. They have plenty of practice wiping out the ghouls and super mutants. At that point, they've effectively annexed the area as who exactly is going to stand up to them? The only real threat lies with the numbers of the Minutemen, so as has been discussed, we'd definitely need to identify avenues to handle them in the overhaul. The brute force method would be war, because war never changes. But I can definitely see scenarios where they come together in various forms (and with members like Quinlan approving of this, I can see it as a very real possibility) and allow the Minutemen to effectively govern the area, gain training from the BoS, while allowing the BoS to get the job done in the area and move on. As you've mentioned in a previous post, bringing both sides to the negotiation table to see what works the best. If the BoS wins, they have the upper hand but largely don't want to deal with governing anyway, so it shouldn't be too difficult to have a solid outcome that doesn't involve war.

[Vaernus]

 

 

Very interesting. Alright, I take it back then. BoS will need to wipe them out completely before they take the Prydwen down. They are a real threat to their survival. It also makes it vital to setup a new base of operations in one of those vaults for long term Commonwealth usage. Possibly get the Prydwen sent back to the Capital Wasteland. Food for thought.

Pretty much. BUT: the easiest way around this would be negotiation IE the BoS agreeing terms with the minutemen that they do not build arty within range of the airport. (Unless the two factions are allied somehow. I strongly dislike how ever damn thing in fallout four has to be solved with violence. One could even have a route out of fighting for high int characters here by building a C-RAM (anti-artillery system) at the airport.

http://forums.nexusmods.com/public/style_images/underground/attachicon.gifCRAM.jpg

 

 

Hmm, reminds me of the Tesla Cannon or the current Gauss Rifle which, when coupled with the targeting systems in turrets, could easily take down incoming artillery. If House was able to build systems around New Vegas to stop nearly every nuclear missile from hitting it, simple artillery should be a piece of cake for the Brotherhood.

[Scribblesix]

Hmm, reminds me of the Tesla Cannon or the current Gauss Rifle which, when coupled with the targeting systems in turrets, could easily take down incoming artillery. If House was able to build systems around New Vegas to stop nearly every nuclear missile from hitting it, simple artillery should be a piece of cake for the Brotherhood.

 

Honestly all you need is a radar, targeting computer and heavy laser turrets; science three should do nicely.

[Athanasa]

Re: Sponsorship and the Normal Method of Joining the Brotherhood

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Steel_ranks

 

I'm fairly certain sponsorship isn't the only way to join the BoS for your average civilian. Of course, your character is NEVER an 'average civilian'. I think - in their case - Sponsorship is the only way to get around the years of training and *cough* education required for most normal Brotherhood members. But, that's getting off point.

 

The normal method for joining the Brotherhood is to join as an initiate... or, according to the wiki, as a Squire. Except what I've seen of squires in the games indicates that they seem to be either a 'cadet' style rank, a rank for the sub-adults, or a rank for those born into the Brotherhood. But anyway, disregarding that...

 

 

Initiate is one of the lowest ranks in the Brotherhood of Steel's rank system. The precise definition of the rank appears to vary between the regional chapters.

The West Coast division uses the term to indicate a mere trainee as having been initiated into the Brotherhood, whereas the other two [divisions] reserve that title until the recruit has completed initial training. The most plausible explanation lies in the fact that the West Coast division is significantly more insular than the others; the bulk of its new recruits are the offspring of existing members, and only rarely are outsiders accepted into the organization. By contrast, circumstances have forced the other two divisions to actively recruit from among the local population.

[...]

In the West Coast division, Initiate is the base rank of one who has only just been accepted into the Brotherhood as a trainee. After completing initial training, Initiates are slated to become either Scribes or Knights, and are promoted to Apprentice in the appropriate branch. Initiates on the West Coast were also not allowed to leave the Lost Hills Bunker and experience field combat. They would have to be promoted to Squire before they could actually fight.

Well, that was a complete mess. Given that the there's very little information on the East Coast Brotherhood, and the 'squires' we see in-game are (irritating) children who constantly complain about not being allowed to fight while you take them to witness atrocities in the Wasteland.

 

 

 

 

Now, I'm not sure which view Maxson comes into. I'd like to imagine that - because of his exposure to the Lyon's way of doing things - he's at least a little more open to recruits from 'outside' the Brotherhood ranks. Not complete strangers, but maybe accepting starry-eyed recruits in love with the 'romance' and 'honour' of the BoS from areas under their protection.

 

Actually... We already have examples in-game of recruits outside of the Brotherhood in the Fallout 4. Initiate Clarke and his friend, Knight Lucia. There are also notes on the terminals in the Brotherhood Main Deck suggesting that people are writing back to their civilian families in the Capital Wasteland.

Clarke is a member of the Brotherhood of Steel who joined at roughly the same time as Lucia. The two were part of the Brotherhood for at least two years, and were largely considered friends with each other.

Maxson is 20 in game, but was promoted to Elder at 16 (4 years ago), so the new recruitments from 'outside the Brotherhood' may be his idea, or him following the Lyons. He seems to be a practical sort of guy - more soldiers is a good thing, right?

 

 

Unfortunately, most of the information on the Wiki is based on the West Coast branches of the Brotherhood. And at times, stuff in FO4 contradicts itself all over the place. Ho hum.

The East Coast detachment utilizes a slightly different system to that of the original Brotherhood on the West Coast.

There are 3 main paths an initiate can take: the Army, Air Force or a Civilian role:

The Army are effectively the ground soldiers of the Brotherhood and follow a ranking system which incorporates both Knights and Paladins (the latter being of a higher rank), different from other Brotherhood chapters.

The Air Force consists of Lancers, those who fly the airship Prydwen as well as the many VB-02 Vertibird gunships the Brotherhood has in its possession. The ranking structure is similar to that of the Army's Knights, although the Rank of Lancer-Captain carries much greater significance; Kells being the second in command to Elder Arthur Maxson and captain of the Prydwen.

Civilian roles are dedicated to the Scribes who follow a seperate ranking structure to that of the Brotherhood's military services. Scribes are split into three distinct 'Orders': the Order of the Sword, the Order of the Shield, and the Order of the Quill, which are responsible for the research and maintenance of weapons, the research and maintenance of armour and for history, record keeping and non-combat technology respectively. Each order is led by a 'Proctor' who consults with the Head Scribe and Elder on certain issues.

 

Finally, the main reason sponsorship is unlikely to be the standard method of joining the BoS: It is horribly inefficient. It requires Brotherhood members to be actively monitoring the civilian populace and taking interest in individuals. This probably isn't going to happen as part of the general mutant hunting and technology reclamation. The other option is that if Sponsorship is the only way in, then only those strange Wastelanders that stand out (player characters, apparently) ever join the BoS from outside their ranks.

 

 

 

EDIT: Okay, so I completely misunderstood Sponsorship. It SEEMS like you... start in the the BoS as an initiate and train. Then, if someone notices your potential, you get Sponsored. Or, if you're the Player Character, you get field-promoted to Initiate and swap training for trial-by-fire.

Danse: "When I was an Initiate, my sponsor was Paladin Krieg. Toughest squad leader I ever served with. He was a model soldier, embodying the values every trainee was striving to achieve."

However, I have no idea what happens to someone that doesn't get sponsored. I guess they end up like Initiate Clarke - he didn't show potential, while his friend Lucia was sponsored to Knight. At some point somebody takes notice, probably.

 

 

 

 

 

Miscellanious Other Stuff

In another thread, I noticed people mentioning that the BoS seems like a ragtag (if high-tech) militia. And that's fair enough - as you go around the Prydwen, people are vaguely milling around.

 

So, NPCs need to be doing proper military training stuff.

• Firing Ranges. Complete with people in Power Armor watching the training initiates.
• BoS members running around in formation (if pathing allows it) in the BoS uniform jumpsuits. Complete with Knight in Power Armor at the front, 'motivating' the troops. And chanted marching songs.
• NPCs running the assault course? Although I imagine pathing would go mad at that. Off-duty members placing bets on them.
• A Drill Sergeant somewhere, doing what they do best... shouting, I assume?
• PUSH UPS. MORE PUSH UPS. I WANT YOU AS STRONG AS POWER ARMOR! I bet that animation isn't in game, though.

 

Expanded interior of the Prydwen. Not MUCH, just two more fairly small cells on the sides?

• A hospital area (more than the 2 beds by Cade). If there are Rescue type quests, maybe you can sometimes find the people you rescued in here for a few weeks after - mmm, repercussions of actions!
• Lecturing area? For the Scribes and BoS members. The 'lecturers' basically read out tips from loading screens.
• "The weakest point of a Deathclaw is NOT its head. Cripple the legs so it can't charge, then aim for the thinner scales on the belly."
• "Once you remove the arms of many robots, they will attempt to close with you and detonate. Do not let them near you or your brothers."
• "This is a super mutant. It's hard to believe, but it was once human. It may even have been a woman. This is why science must be controlled."
• "Removing limbs from a ghoul will not kill it immediately." (Not even specifying feral ghoul - all ghouls are abominations!)
• "Synths are robots - shooting the arms and legs off won't kill it."

Edited December 29, 2015 by Athanasa

[zezia333]

One thing that I have been wanting to do in the game is to take the submarine that is still in operation (if you help fix it) and bring it to the Brotherhood.

[Athanasa]

One thing that I have been wanting to do in the game is to take the submarine that is still in operation (if you help fix it) and bring it to the Brotherhood.

 

Speaking of underwater stuff, there were notes in the Institute about trying to make synth dolphins or sharks (refered to as delphinius and carcharodon). There's also a cut quest called 20 Leagues Under the Sea, with a... sea creature of some sort in the picture. It's got what look like gills (or jaw outline?), but a dolphin style 'forehead' and 'beak'. It also has what MIGHT be a dorsal fin, a stub of what could be a front limb, and a tail to the right. With the angle, I can't tell if it's meant to be an upright fish type tail, or a dolphin style fluke at an angle.

Anyway, there are theories floating about for underwater DLC. I hope that, if there is underwater DLC, the Brotherhood can be involved. Maybe not an oil rig this time, though.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Athanasa

[zezia333]

Synth dolphins? Really. I mean I know the Institute were doing wasteful projects but dolphins! How would they be even useful?

[Athanasa]

I can't remember what the terminal said, I'd have to go back and look at it. I think they wanted something aquatic for whatever reason. Dolphins are bright enough that there's probably a lot you can do with them. Sharks, on the other hand, are almost machines anyway. It's probably the biology department mucking around anyway.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Athanasa

[Vaernus]

 

Re: Sponsorship and the Normal Method of Joining the Brotherhood

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Steel_ranks

 

I'm fairly certain sponsorship isn't the only way to join the BoS for your average civilian. Of course, your character is NEVER an 'average civilian'. I think - in their case - Sponsorship is the only way to get around the years of training and *cough* education required for most normal Brotherhood members. But, that's getting off point.

 

The normal method for joining the Brotherhood is to join as an initiate... or, according to the wiki, as a Squire. Except what I've seen of squires in the games indicates that they seem to be either a 'cadet' style rank, a rank for the sub-adults, or a rank for those born into the Brotherhood. But anyway, disregarding that...

 

 

Initiate is one of the lowest ranks in the Brotherhood of Steel's rank system. The precise definition of the rank appears to vary between the regional chapters.

The West Coast division uses the term to indicate a mere trainee as having been initiated into the Brotherhood, whereas the other two [divisions] reserve that title until the recruit has completed initial training. The most plausible explanation lies in the fact that the West Coast division is significantly more insular than the others; the bulk of its new recruits are the offspring of existing members, and only rarely are outsiders accepted into the organization. By contrast, circumstances have forced the other two divisions to actively recruit from among the local population.

[...]

In the West Coast division, Initiate is the base rank of one who has only just been accepted into the Brotherhood as a trainee. After completing initial training, Initiates are slated to become either Scribes or Knights, and are promoted to Apprentice in the appropriate branch. Initiates on the West Coast were also not allowed to leave the Lost Hills Bunker and experience field combat. They would have to be promoted to Squire before they could actually fight.

Well, that was a complete mess. Given that the there's very little information on the East Coast Brotherhood, and the 'squires' we see in-game are (irritating) children who constantly complain about not being allowed to fight while you take them to witness atrocities in the Wasteland.

 

 

 

 

Now, I'm not sure which view Maxson comes into. I'd like to imagine that - because of his exposure to the Lyon's way of doing things - he's at least a little more open to recruits from 'outside' the Brotherhood ranks. Not complete strangers, but maybe accepting starry-eyed recruits in love with the 'romance' and 'honour' of the BoS from areas under their protection.

 

Actually... We already have examples in-game of recruits outside of the Brotherhood in the Fallout 4. Initiate Clarke and his friend, Knight Lucia. There are also notes on the terminals in the Brotherhood Main Deck suggesting that people are writing back to their civilian families in the Capital Wasteland.

Clarke is a member of the Brotherhood of Steel who joined at roughly the same time as Lucia. The two were part of the Brotherhood for at least two years, and were largely considered friends with each other.

Maxson is 20 in game, but was promoted to Elder at 16 (4 years ago), so the new recruitments from 'outside the Brotherhood' may be his idea, or him following the Lyons. He seems to be a practical sort of guy - more soldiers is a good thing, right?

 

 

Unfortunately, most of the information on the Wiki is based on the West Coast branches of the Brotherhood. And at times, stuff in FO4 contradicts itself all over the place. Ho hum.

The East Coast detachment utilizes a slightly different system to that of the original Brotherhood on the West Coast.

There are 3 main paths an initiate can take: the Army, Air Force or a Civilian role:

The Army are effectively the ground soldiers of the Brotherhood and follow a ranking system which incorporates both Knights and Paladins (the latter being of a higher rank), different from other Brotherhood chapters.

The Air Force consists of Lancers, those who fly the airship Prydwen as well as the many VB-02 Vertibird gunships the Brotherhood has in its possession. The ranking structure is similar to that of the Army's Knights, although the Rank of Lancer-Captain carries much greater significance; Kells being the second in command to Elder Arthur Maxson and captain of the Prydwen.

Civilian roles are dedicated to the Scribes who follow a seperate ranking structure to that of the Brotherhood's military services. Scribes are split into three distinct 'Orders': the Order of the Sword, the Order of the Shield, and the Order of the Quill, which are responsible for the research and maintenance of weapons, the research and maintenance of armour and for history, record keeping and non-combat technology respectively. Each order is led by a 'Proctor' who consults with the Head Scribe and Elder on certain issues.

 

Finally, the main reason sponsorship is unlikely to be the standard method of joining the BoS: It is horribly inefficient. It requires Brotherhood members to be actively monitoring the civilian populace and taking interest in individuals. This probably isn't going to happen as part of the general mutant hunting and technology reclamation. The other option is that if Sponsorship is the only way in, then only those strange Wastelanders that stand out (player characters, apparently) ever join the BoS from outside their ranks.

 

 

 

EDIT: Okay, so I completely misunderstood Sponsorship. It SEEMS like you... start in the the BoS as an initiate and train. Then, if someone notices your potential, you get Sponsored. Or, if you're the Player Character, you get field-promoted to Initiate and swap training for trial-by-fire.

Danse: "When I was an Initiate, my sponsor was Paladin Krieg. Toughest squad leader I ever served with. He was a model soldier, embodying the values every trainee was striving to achieve."

However, I have no idea what happens to someone that doesn't get sponsored. I guess they end up like Initiate Clarke - he didn't show potential, while his friend Lucia was sponsored to Knight. At some point somebody takes notice, probably.

 

 

 

 

 

Miscellanious Other Stuff

In another thread, I noticed people mentioning that the BoS seems like a ragtag (if high-tech) militia. And that's fair enough - as you go around the Prydwen, people are vaguely milling around.

 

So, NPCs need to be doing proper military training stuff.

• Firing Ranges. Complete with people in Power Armor watching the training initiates.
• BoS members running around in formation (if pathing allows it) in the BoS uniform jumpsuits. Complete with Knight in Power Armor at the front, 'motivating' the troops. And chanted marching songs.
• NPCs running the assault course? Although I imagine pathing would go mad at that. Off-duty members placing bets on them.
• A Drill Sergeant somewhere, doing what they do best... shouting, I assume?
• PUSH UPS. MORE PUSH UPS. I WANT YOU AS STRONG AS POWER ARMOR! I bet that animation isn't in game, though.

 

Expanded interior of the Prydwen. Not MUCH, just two more fairly small cells on the sides?

• A hospital area (more than the 2 beds by Cade). If there are Rescue type quests, maybe you can sometimes find the people you rescued in here for a few weeks after - mmm, repercussions of actions!
• Lecturing area? For the Scribes and BoS members. The 'lecturers' basically read out tips from loading screens.
• "The weakest point of a Deathclaw is NOT its head. Cripple the legs so it can't charge, then aim for the thinner scales on the belly."
• "Once you remove the arms of many robots, they will attempt to close with you and detonate. Do not let them near you or your brothers."
• "This is a super mutant. It's hard to believe, but it was once human. It may even have been a woman. This is why science must be controlled."
• "Removing limbs from a ghoul will not kill it immediately." (Not even specifying feral ghoul - all ghouls are abominations!)
• "Synths are robots - shooting the arms and legs off won't kill it."

 

 

With regards to sponsorship, what I got from Danse, Kells, and Maxson was that sponsorship was the only way to get into the Brotherhood outside of being born into it (the squires). It was Maxson's change to the way Lyons was approaching recruitment where they were simply recruiting everyone in the Capital Wasteland, but most of the recruits were getting killed far too often as quite frankly they were too inexperienced. He changed it to sponsorship because not only would you generally get better recruits in, but it also put the sponsor's ass in a sling if the recruit failed. Therefore there was due diligence by a BoS member to ensure their sponsorship worked out (such as personally taking it upon themselves to train them), and it built a strong bond between the two which strengthened the Brotherhood. Danse actually goes into this in-depth as you build up his relationship, especially when talking about his sponsor.

 

As for high tech militia, it seemed very organized in Fallout 3. The Citadel had training regiments, shooting ranges, etc. I think with Fallout 4, they've only recently arrived in the Commonwealth, and there hasn't been much time to setup a permanent camp. Those you see on the Prydwen are most likely in between patrols and are relaxing. I feel that's where the overhaul can shine in allowing the BoS to fully lock down the area, begin recruiting, and placing their mark on the area (as Maxson emphasizes now that the main threats are removed). I can see all those ideas playing out well in the expanding Boston Airport (getting it now more inline with something like Camp McCarran/Camp Golf in New Vegas.

 

For expanded Prydwen, honestly I'd do all that on the ground. They expand into the area of the Airport that is all the broken planes and they'd have plenty of room for all kinds of buildings. Or, as mentioned earlier, they setup a long term HQ in either Fort Hagan (which would be like another Citadel/Pentagon with a huge amount of tech while being easily defensible), the old Railroad HQ (forget the name, but you do a mission there for the Railroad and it is/was a very high tech military base), or one of the vaults (I could honestly see them taking over Vault 81, especially with the secret vault section being plenty of space for them which once again gets into gray moral territory but fits their style and forces the player to make decisions -- perhaps they relocate the people there to the surface or another vault).

[Vaernus]

One thing that I have been wanting to do in the game is to take the submarine that is still in operation (if you help fix it) and bring it to the Brotherhood.

 

Man, let's make them even more powerful. Giant airship, giant robot, vertibirds, power armor, advanced weaponry.....and a submarine that can fire tactical nukes on an area. They will seriously have the ability to conquer anything. And you know what, I love the idea. They've got their Air Force with the Lancers, their scientists with the Scribes, and their Army with the Knights/Paladins, so why not take the submarine, learn how to operate and build new ones, and have a Navy as well. Brotherhood Seabees? I'm plugging that idea into the main post.