Brotherhood Overhaul (Conceptual Stage)

[Guest deleted2588518]

 

3) That really depends. While its hard to convey in Bethesda games, the Minutemen have numbers far beyond the Brotherhood (the entire Commonwealth versus whatever is on the Prydwen). Numbers have defeated the Brotherhood in the past against the NCR. With FO4, their numbers are completely finite, and that's whatever came with Maxson on the Prydwen. If the Minutemen keep attacking, and their weaponry isn't that bad, they may lose a lot while the Brotherhood loses little, yet the numbers add up. Couple that with pulling off the destruction of the Prydwen using the artillery, and the chaos that follows, and its very doable.

 

3b) In regards to artillery, my understanding is that the Minutemen are over a century old. They've held The Castle during that entire time and only recently did they fall apart. In that time, considering you get the artillery in their armory, they had to master using it. Ronnie Shaw is part of the old regime that knows how to use them properly, and coordinates the attacks. Considering she exists, its not out of the realm to say that many others who were part of the Minutemen before and used the artillery also exist, rejoin when they grow back in power, and can properly use the artillery against the Prydwen.

 

 

 

You are forgetting one very important thing that Maxon's Brotherhood has. Air superiority. That itself wins wars with very few ground troops. And if that air support is guarding a heavily fortified stronghold? That's not only impractical to assault but a tactical suicide. Not to mention the Minutemen (without direct aid from the PC) have no munitions, weapons or armor.

 

Yes, the Minutemen might be in high number ONLY IF the PC builds up their numbers themselves. Remember, the minutemen are all but destroyed. None of their members from before the split and betrayal are still around. All of that knowledge of any military strategy or use of their technology is reduced to a single person. Any Minuteman currently in the ranks of the PC's standing militia are farmers or scavengers.

The old guard has all been killed. Quency reduced their numbers to just Preston. And Ronnie only came back because she could hold her own and wanted back in the fold. The rest are dead or became raiders and were killed. You find logs of them in the commonwealth after they become raiders. They are all dead. Ronnie is your only source for information and knowledge. Preston isn't old enough to know any of the important stuff.

Edited December 31, 2015 by TotalMeltdown

[Vaernus]

 

Thankies. :3 Also, HOORAY, military person! Now I can spit out mil-related stuff and someone can correct me when I sound like a spazz. TBH, all I know is from ArmA borderline-Milsim groups anyway.

 

Well, I'm not a grunt or ground pounder but I do have a good understanding of field tactics. So I can add where I'm knowledgeable and will openly admit when my knowledge runs out.

 

 

 

Oooh, that's a point. Fire Teams / Squads. I don't know about the composition of the current BoS patrol squads that drop from V-Birds, but if they could be equipped and behave like fireteams / squads, that'd be great

 

Yea, I'd love to see the BoS operate with some sort of resplendence of field tactics. Though that's an AI issue and the current AI is just terribad. Even followers just run off in their own direction with zero regard to the PC when the combat AI kicks in. Its sorta frustrating. Considering their are dumb as rocks.

 

AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, STOP RUNNING INTO GRENADES!

 

Also, as a side note. I would love a parody of Drill Sergeant Dornan somewhere at the Airport. Please, please, please. I know he was Enclave but dear god that kind of humor needs to happen again!

 

 

You really want this?

 

[Vaernus]

ALSO! Something I completely forgot, but it popped up in my head when fighting with my tablet.

 

Brotherhood Radio

Like the Minutemen radio, but less revolved around YOU and more about the Brotherhood. Maybe it's an encrypted station, so you can only access it after you join the BoS and get your Pip-Boy modified for it. It contains stuff like enemy activity reports, the current status of active Vertibirds (Vertibird Spatha heading out to the North-West, lost contanct with Sabre), maybe some information on current salvage missions you've completed. ("Salvage at X successful")

If you're adding in some radiant quests, it could also give information of the coordinates and details of anything unusual in case any members of the BoS are nearby and able to investigate (aka youy), "Mutants / Raiders / Synths seen assaulting [WHATEVER] at coordinates [WHEREVER] / in sector [WHEREVER]", "Brotherhood distress beacon detected near [WHEREVER]", "Lost contact with [VBird] near [WHEREVER]"

Also, as a bonus, voice acting for Radio can probably get away with lower audio quality than normal character voice acting. Mostly because you can blame anything quality issues on the quality of equipment in the Prydwen and 'noise' on the frequency. As it's a military frequency, you can have the information loop.

 

...I wonder if it's possible to make a mod that causes all radio to go haywire in RadStorms? Maybe go mad just before the storms hit to give you warning? I wonder, would it just go mad with static in the storm, or play really eerie keening, hissing and generally creepy noises? Keep your ear to the radio and listen for the static.

 

 

Side Note: The pre-mentioned VBird callsigns / names are all weapons. Spatha's a knife, Vorpal is... well, an adjective from the Jaberwockie, but it's knife related. Danse's recon team was was "Recon Squad Gladius". I'll try to see how many callsigns and whatnot I can throw together tomorrow.

 

I'm surprised they never even had the radio, or something equivalent, since you had the call come in during Shadow of Steel from Danse. We can probably expand off of that military frequency to add more content. Also, wasn't Vorpal a bunny?

[Athanasa]

As sad as it is, and Athanasa as a Danse fangirl is going to kill me, the correct choice of action really is to kill Danse. As a synth, it really isn't difficult for someone to get into his programming and do horrible things. And that's outside of his control. It doesn't matter what he's done, or how many good deeds he has accomplished, it takes one person with his shutdown code and science skill to have him infilitrate Diamond City, shoot up everyone there, and leave such a lasting bad impression that the BoS's job in the area is exceptionally hostile. "What, the Brotherhood of Steel is killing us *AND* they have synths in their ranks? They're even worse than the Institute. Maybe they were working together?" You can't reprogram a human like that. Not instantly, at least. Someone can mold another over time, but not by typing up some code in a day.

 

My headcanon says that as he's been away from the Institute for 10 years, reprogramming would wipe his brain like the brain-dead synths in the Railroad. 'Cause the squishy grey bits in his head have done what human squishy brain bits do and adapted, too far to be un-adapted. But, as I said, that's just the headcanon I use to be able to sleep at night...

... although, that doesn't stop people scooping out the grey goop and stucking another chip in there, using the husk as a weapon. Bugger. Goddamnit, f*** you Bethesda. You had to take the one professional stoic knight character in the game and make it so the only logical way is to kill the guy. The guy that tanks a JET ENGINE and then forgives you for it. And make it so he wants you to kill him.

 

Well, having reached that conclusion, I also agree.

 

He needs to die.

 

And I hate it. Imma go and sulk now and read fanfics.

 

EDIT: ... How safe is he if the Institue is wiped from the planet?

Edited December 31, 2015 by Athanasa

[Athanasa]

 

You really want this?

 

 

Yes. Dear god, yes.

[Vaernus]

 

 

3) That really depends. While its hard to convey in Bethesda games, the Minutemen have numbers far beyond the Brotherhood (the entire Commonwealth versus whatever is on the Prydwen). Numbers have defeated the Brotherhood in the past against the NCR. With FO4, their numbers are completely finite, and that's whatever came with Maxson on the Prydwen. If the Minutemen keep attacking, and their weaponry isn't that bad, they may lose a lot while the Brotherhood loses little, yet the numbers add up. Couple that with pulling off the destruction of the Prydwen using the artillery, and the chaos that follows, and its very doable.

 

3b) In regards to artillery, my understanding is that the Minutemen are over a century old. They've held The Castle during that entire time and only recently did they fall apart. In that time, considering you get the artillery in their armory, they had to master using it. Ronnie Shaw is part of the old regime that knows how to use them properly, and coordinates the attacks. Considering she exists, its not out of the realm to say that many others who were part of the Minutemen before and used the artillery also exist, rejoin when they grow back in power, and can properly use the artillery against the Prydwen.

 

 

 

You are forgetting one very important thing that Maxon's Brotherhood has. Air superiority. That itself wins wars with very few ground troops. And if that air support is guarding a heavily fortified stronghold? That's not only impractical to assault but a tactical suicide. Not to mention the Minutemen (without direct aid from the PC) have no munitions, weapons or armor.

 

Yes, the Minutemen might be in high number ONLY IF the PC builds up their numbers themselves. Remember, the minutemen are all but destroyed. None of their members from before the split and betrayal are still around. All of that knowledge of any military strategy or use of their technology is reduced to a single person. Any Minuteman currently in the ranks of the PC's standing militia are farmers or scavengers.

 

 

Well this air superiority is assuming they have competent Lancers. I've reasonably confident that they are blind, deaf, and drunk. Except the fast travel vertibird which is reasonably efficient except for dropping me in the middle of super mutant camps.

 

In all seriousness, I agree, but at the same time, there is also a limited amount of vertibirds. All it takes is a few Minutemen with missile launchers and you've removed that benefit. If they were able to move their entire fleet over, and be able to build new ones on the fly, then yes. But considering there's only 4 trapeze things on the Prydwen, there could only have been so many brought over including escort if they had to keep landing them to refuel.

 

But yes, its entirely hinged on the player's actions. If the player never bothers with the Minutemen outside of leaving them in Sanctuary, then there is absolutely no threats to the BoS after beating the Institute. A lot of the Minutemen "war" concepts hinge on at least getting to the armory with The Castle which has started to see a huge uptick in Minutemen numbers and strength.

[Athanasa]

In all seriousness, I agree, but at the same time, there is also a limited amount of vertibirds. All it takes is a few Minutemen with missile launchers and you've removed that benefit. If they were able to move their entire fleet over, and be able to build new ones on the fly, then yes. But considering there's only 4 trapeze things on the Prydwen, there could only have been so many brought over including escort if they had to keep landing them to refuel.

 

Realistically, yes.

 

Alternately, play it off as the good old Tardis Effect. In-game models are limited in size - a lot of things can't actually be their real life scale (see: all of Boston) because there just isn't enough space. If the airport runway was actual runway scale, we'd lose most of the right hand side of the map.

The interior of the Prydwen is also clearly larger than the outside of it. That or they actually have almost no air in that balloon. In 'Real Size', it may well have much more in it. Sadly, 'Game Size' is a shrunk down caricature.

[Guest deleted2588518]

 

You really want this?

 

 

 

You really need to be military to understand why this is amazingly hilarious.

[Scribblesix]

Ar, my personal VPN just died and as I'm based in the PRC i'll have to get it sorted before I can read any Google docs. :sad:

 

 

 

Well, I'm not a grunt or ground pounder but I do have a good understanding of field tactics. So I can add where I'm knowledgeable and will openly admit when my knowledge runs out.

 

AFAIK isn't believable infantry AI almost impossible to do without carefully controlled environments (Fear)? This one might be beyond our reach to implement.I think at the moment there are a few human AI types that influence their behavior -Foolhardy/Charger{?} danse and strong. Sneak- Deacon. Marksman- Mc'Cready. Part of the reason that the BoS look SO bad is they are randomly inserted into environments, beth tended to place spawns with a modicum of intelligence; Bolt action raiders are next to windows and on the rooftops, melee types are hidden inside or round corners.

[Athanasa]

You really need to be military to understand why this is amazingly hilarious.

 

As non-military, I'm going to hazard guesses as to why I find it hillarious. Because I love disecting humor.

 

EVERYTHING YOU DO IS WRONG YOU CAN DO NOTHING RIGHT MY INCREDIBLE LOYALTY TO MY CAUSE MEANS I NEVER EVER STOP TO BREATHE I AM A WALKING SCREAMING TIN CAN OF RAGE AND FURY AND DISAPPOINTMENT AT THE LOT OF YOU I DO NOT NEED TO THINK UP WHAT I SAY THE WORDS FORM THEMSELVES LIKE THE ORDERLY SOLDIERS YOU ARE NOT AND MARCH RIGHT OUT OF MY MOUTH DOWN YOUR SORRY EARS

DISMISSED

 

Something like that?