Brotherhood Overhaul (Conceptual Stage)

[Athanasa]

AFAIK isn't believable infantry AI almost impossible to do without carefully controlled environments (Fear)? This one might be beyond our reach to implement.I think at the moment there are a few human AI types that influence their behavior -Foolhardy/Charger{?} danse and strong. Sneak- Deacon. Marksman- Mc'Cready. Part of the reason that the BoS look SO bad is they are randomly inserted into environments, beth tended to place spawns with a modicum of intelligence; Bolt action raiders are next to windows and on the rooftops, melee types are hidden inside or round corners.

 

That or you have entire games based around having awesome AI, like ArmA. But ArmA is ranged combat based, and it tends to go a little bit mental in CQB / urban settings. Unless you mod it massively with scripts, then it tends to kill the server / your processor at higher player / unit counts.

 

Gah, 4am. Bed time. I only hopped on the PC because the tablet was being worse than useless. I didn't mean to be here for 2 hours.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Athanasa

[Guest deleted2588518]

 

Well this air superiority is assuming they have competent Lancers. I've reasonably confident that they are blind, deaf, and drunk. Except the fast travel vertibird which is reasonably efficient except for dropping me in the middle of super mutant camps.

 

In all seriousness, I agree, but at the same time, there is also a limited amount of vertibirds. All it takes is a few Minutemen with missile launchers and you've removed that benefit. If they were able to move their entire fleet over, and be able to build new ones on the fly, then yes. But considering there's only 4 trapeze things on the Prydwen, there could only have been so many brought over including escort if they had to keep landing them to refuel.

 

But yes, its entirely hinged on the player's actions. If the player never bothers with the Minutemen outside of leaving them in Sanctuary, then there is absolutely no threats to the BoS after beating the Institute. A lot of the Minutemen "war" concepts hinge on at least getting to the armory with The Castle which has started to see a huge uptick in Minutemen numbers and strength.

 

 

LMFAO! Yes, I agree that Vanilla FO4's BoS Lancer pilots are seriously under skilled. But you are fixing this so that they aren't massively incompetent? So that makes my point even more valid.

 

If you haven't noticed... there are Vertibird corpses littering Boston. A considerable amount to be honest. I don't see any reason why the Brotherhood wouldn't go out of their way to salvage these downed aircraft.

 

I will concede the fact that there needs to be some sort of option for the Minutemen to disable the Brotherhood for the sake of choice. However, there needs to be some sort of logical way to do this outside of suicide tactics and being reliant on technology they simply have ability to realistically use against a military target.

 

Maybe if they could salvage Power Armor from around the wasteland. That could be a mission priority to bolster their numbers and give them at least a chance at a ground assault. Since there are quite frankly unreasonable amounts of Power Armor frames and suits laying around Boston, and downed Vertibirds... That could be taken into consideration. With the PC's knowledge (males are vets) they could be salvaged and used somewhat effectively, but not on the same level as the Brotherhoood. But it would still open up reasonable options that make logical sense.

[Vaernus]

 

 

You really want this?

 

 

 

You really need to be military to understand why this is amazingly hilarious.

 

 

Oh I went through it in boot camp in Great Lakes. Was in US Navy. Funny enough, we had a Full Metal Jacket experience as well. Those were some....times. Entire division gets "beat" for hours because the one guy had a jelly donut in his locker. First day he got off Light and Limited. He has to eat it and then suck his thumb while we're getting beat (when I say beat for those outside military, we didn't get hit, but after hours of push ups, you'd much rather get punched in the face anyway). I kid you not. Back on Light and Limited the next day. Don't think he ever got past boot camp either. Left an impression though.

[Guest deleted2588518]

Ar, my personal VPN just died and as I'm based in the PRC i'll have to get it sorted before I can read any Google docs. :sad:

 

 

 

Well, I'm not a grunt or ground pounder but I do have a good understanding of field tactics. So I can add where I'm knowledgeable and will openly admit when my knowledge runs out.

 

AFAIK isn't believable infantry AI almost impossible to do without carefully controlled environments (Fear)? This one might be beyond our reach to implement.I think at the moment there are a few human AI types that influence their behavior -Foolhardy/Charger{?} danse and strong. Sneak- Deacon. Marksman- Mc'Cready. Part of the reason that the BoS look SO bad is they are randomly inserted into environments, beth tended to place spawns with a modicum of intelligence; Bolt action raiders are next to windows and on the rooftops, melee types are hidden inside or round corners.

 

 

Yea, its sort of impossible to simulate a real fire fight as its pretty chaotic at even the best of times. But a basic behavior where a unit stays close to each other and uses cover effectively wouldn't go amiss.

[Guest deleted2588518]

Oh I went through it in boot camp in Great Lakes. Was in US Navy. Funny enough, we had a Full Metal Jacket experience as well. Those were some....times. Entire division gets "beat" for hours because the one guy had a jelly donut in his locker. First day he got off Light and Limited. He has to eat it and then suck his thumb while we're getting beat (when I say beat for those outside military, we didn't get hit, but after hours of push ups, you'd much rather get punched in the face anyway). I kid you not. Back on Light and Limited the next day. Don't think he ever got past boot camp either. Left an impression though.

 

 

Great Lakes Winter 2003. I had a blast and the beating weren't all that bad. USS Nimitz. I had a MS for an RDC.

I got so comfortable that I slept while marching to mess. I do remember one night we didn't sleep and were beat until reveille. But we lost one of our flags and we honestly deserved it.

[Athanasa]

With the PC's knowledge (males are vets) they could be salvaged and used somewhat effectively, but not on the same level as the Brotherhoood. But it would still open up reasonable options that make logical sense.

If someone could make an alternate start mod where females can be vets too, that'd be great.

[Vaernus]

 

 

Well this air superiority is assuming they have competent Lancers. I've reasonably confident that they are blind, deaf, and drunk. Except the fast travel vertibird which is reasonably efficient except for dropping me in the middle of super mutant camps.

 

In all seriousness, I agree, but at the same time, there is also a limited amount of vertibirds. All it takes is a few Minutemen with missile launchers and you've removed that benefit. If they were able to move their entire fleet over, and be able to build new ones on the fly, then yes. But considering there's only 4 trapeze things on the Prydwen, there could only have been so many brought over including escort if they had to keep landing them to refuel.

 

But yes, its entirely hinged on the player's actions. If the player never bothers with the Minutemen outside of leaving them in Sanctuary, then there is absolutely no threats to the BoS after beating the Institute. A lot of the Minutemen "war" concepts hinge on at least getting to the armory with The Castle which has started to see a huge uptick in Minutemen numbers and strength.

 

 

LMFAO! Yes, I agree that Vanilla FO4's BoS Lancer pilots are seriously under skilled. But you are fixing this so that they aren't massively incompetent? So that makes my point even more valid.

 

If you haven't noticed... there are Vertibird corpses littering Boston. A considerable amount to be honest. I don't see any reason why the Brotherhood wouldn't go out of their way to salvage these downed aircraft.

 

I will concede the fact that there needs to be some sort of option for the Minutemen to disable the Brotherhood for the sake of choice. However, there needs to be some sort of logical way to do this outside of suicide tactics and being reliant on technology they simply have ability to realistically use against a military target.

 

Maybe if they could salvage Power Armor from around the wasteland. That could be a mission priority to bolster their numbers and give them at least a chance at a ground assault. Since there are quite frankly unreasonable amounts of Power Armor frames and suits laying around Boston, and downed Vertibirds... That could be taken into consideration. With the PC's knowledge (males are vets) they could be salvaged and used somewhat effectively, but not on the same level as the Brotherhoood. But it would still open up reasonable options that make logical sense.

 

 

I would think if the Minutemen would have a chance, they'd need to be using some of the content in the "We Are The Minutemen" mod where they've got, at least T-45 power armor (since it seems that was Bethesda's intent using the Minutemen paint), and the minutemen clothes/dusters are below better armor. If they were at least at Gunner's level for standard soldiers (and combat armor seems plentiful), and then T-45 armored units, along with their numbers, they'd pose a difficult challenge. The laser musket modded fully is a pretty solid weapon. Arguably better than the standard issue laser rifles the BoS uses. Then as was posted earlier in this thread, giving them something like anti aircraft guns (the example being something the BoS would have to take down artillery, but flip it around for Minutemen). Technically missile turrets already do wonders on vertibirds. Now they can counter the air superiority. They have numbers, but not nearly as strong power armor. And they have good weapons, but aren't going to match up well to a few T-60 knights using gatling lasers.

 

From a BoS perspective, now to attack a Minutemen settlement, you can't just lazily bring in a vertibird as they'll shoot it down. You have to infiltrate and disable to turrets, then the vertibird is going to wipe them out. Would also bring back the more "recon" soldiers seen in previous games who's focus is to sneak around, gain intel, snipe, etc.

[Vaernus]

 

Oh I went through it in boot camp in Great Lakes. Was in US Navy. Funny enough, we had a Full Metal Jacket experience as well. Those were some....times. Entire division gets "beat" for hours because the one guy had a jelly donut in his locker. First day he got off Light and Limited. He has to eat it and then suck his thumb while we're getting beat (when I say beat for those outside military, we didn't get hit, but after hours of push ups, you'd much rather get punched in the face anyway). I kid you not. Back on Light and Limited the next day. Don't think he ever got past boot camp either. Left an impression though.

 

 

Great Lakes Winter 2003. I had a blast and the beating weren't all that bad. USS Nimitz. I had a MS for an RDC.

I got so comfortable that I slept while marching to mess. I do remember one night we didn't sleep and were beat until reveille. But we lost one of our flags and we honestly deserved it.

 

 

No kidding. I was there from December 2002 to February 2003. It was excellent going from there to Goose Creek, SC for A school.

[Guest deleted2588518]

 

I would think if the Minutemen would have a chance, they'd need to be using some of the content in the "We Are The Minutemen" mod where they've got, at least T-45 power armor (since it seems that was Bethesda's intent using the Minutemen paint), and the minutemen clothes/dusters are below better armor. If they were at least at Gunner's level for standard soldiers (and combat armor seems plentiful), and then T-45 armored units, along with their numbers, they'd pose a difficult challenge. The laser musket modded fully is a pretty solid weapon. Arguably better than the standard issue laser rifles the BoS uses. Then as was posted earlier in this thread, giving them something like anti aircraft guns (the example being something the BoS would have to take down artillery, but flip it around for Minutemen). Technically missile turrets already do wonders on vertibirds. Now they can counter the air superiority. They have numbers, but not nearly as strong power armor. And they have good weapons, but aren't going to match up well to a few T-60 knights using gatling lasers.

 

From a BoS perspective, now to attack a Minutemen settlement, you can't just lazily bring in a vertibird as they'll shoot it down. You have to infiltrate and disable to turrets, then the vertibird is going to wipe them out. Would also bring back the more "recon" soldiers seen in previous games who's focus is to sneak around, gain intel, snipe, etc.

 

 

This makes far more sense than just lobbing mortars at the Prydwen. If the PC takes the time to build up the Minutemen as an actual military force, using their military experience, then it is reasonable [with advanced technology] that they could, at the very least, hold off the Brotherhood from a complete takeover.

 

I'm still not convinced that farmers with minimal training, or Gunner converts to Minutemen, even in T-45 would be able to stand up to the Brotherhood in T-60 with fire support.

 

However, needing a realistic chance to assault the Brotherhood. A few trained units with a Fat-Man and fire support from a decent squad of T-45 could get them a foothold. But its hard to see a squad of T-45 with Muskets (even fully modded) with basic ground support make any real headway against T-60s and advanced weapons, coupled with air support as having any real success.

 

But for the sake of needing a real solution... Hows this?

 

As General of the Minutemen, having denounced the Brotherhood (either completely or after a time), the PC starts to build up the Minutemen. You would need to salvage as many T-45 suits of PA and at least two Vertibirds from around the wasteland. One Vertibird is for insertion to a late quest-line event where you're close to the final objective of neutralizing the Brotherhood. The other Vertabird is needed for transport between settlements so that you can keep your people on track and add air support. Basically the General's Personal transport. And a crap ton of rockets, rocket launchers and Mini-Nukes you can get your hands on.

 

Once enough sets of T-45 are collected, you need to train one set of 5 units to train everyone else. Think Paul from Dune teaching the Fremen. Since no one knows how to use the tech correctly.

Then you need a small team to train using a Fat-Man. Plenty of raiders out there for training!

 

Once you've taken the steps to actually get your troops in order and they are competent enough to use the equipment, you need to make plans of attack based on what you know about the Brotherhoods FOB and outposts. A tactical strike of the Police Station would be the point of no return. Then it would be just a matter of getting close enough to Boston Airport with a few Fat-Man launchers and T-45s to start the assault. At that point, you could then have a mini-nuke converted to a missile and have it launched at the Prydwen to blow it out of the sky. (But you'd need to be close enough so you'd have to at least secure the main entrance to Boston Airport.)

 

I think that is a reasonable way to get in and destroy the Prydwen and take out the Brotherhood. Granted, its unrealistic, but its far more realistic than lobbing artillery. But yea, a handful of Fat-Man's and some concentrated assault squads and its doable. Suicidal, but doable.

[Guest deleted2588518]

 

As non-military, I'm going to hazard guesses as to why I find it hillarious. Because I love disecting humor.

 

EVERYTHING YOU DO IS WRONG YOU CAN DO NOTHING RIGHT MY INCREDIBLE LOYALTY TO MY CAUSE MEANS I NEVER EVER STOP TO BREATHE I AM A WALKING SCREAMING TIN CAN OF RAGE AND FURY AND DISAPPOINTMENT AT THE LOT OF YOU I DO NOT NEED TO THINK UP WHAT I SAY THE WORDS FORM THEMSELVES LIKE THE ORDERLY SOLDIERS YOU ARE NOT AND MARCH RIGHT OUT OF MY MOUTH DOWN YOUR SORRY EARS

DISMISSED

 

Something like that?

 

 

Nope. Let me break it down Barney style. This is the best representation of what a real drill instructor is like. Its almost a perfect parody of being a recruit who has screwed up. Its hilarious because you've been there. Its hilarious because once you're out of that situation and are put in charge of other people, your respect and understanding for that Drill Instructor comes full circle and you can't help but become this person yourself. The irony is both the hook and the punchline. Its perfect in its execution and delivery. Peter Jason did an amazing job.