Keeping it "real"

[SilvasRuin]

I'm trying to avoid COBL at the moment, as a lot of people don't like the "adds loads of stuff" type mods, and even though it's a resource many people see it that way. I certainly intend to try another few setups, and one of those may well be COBL based.

You can't turn off the Luggage, only avoid getting it. It may not be "all or nothing", but it is more than just a simple resource, and The Luggage alone is enough to point out that it has a significant effect on balance. The real question is whether or not each individual player is okay with a chest that is accessible in any core game home, or any core game inns for the night you pay for, or any place a moderately expensive scroll is cast. Personally, I stopped using it.

 

Better Cities I have lumped in with Unique Landscapes - sure they add lots of stuff, but they don't actually alter the gameplay and that's what this is mostly about. If I start to run low on ESP slots the few cosmetic mods I have installed will all come back out too.

I would not lump those two in together. Unique Landscapes may add a lot more alchemy ingredients to what you can pick, but alchemy is plentiful to begin with. Better Cities, on the other hand, is an abomination. The cities look great, but it adds guilds, quests, non-journal side quests, and even at least one set of god armor. There's a secret passage in the abandoned mansion in Skingrad, the one with the bats in it. Find that, and it's only a matter of running through a mostly empty maze to get armor that has the stats of Glass with the Black Hand robe enchantments tacked on. I've long since stopped considering Better Cities as a cosmetic mod. If you want a truly cosmetic mod to improve cities, get Open Cities Reborn instead. It improves them all but one of them so far, opens them up to the world space (now that's immersion for you), and they don't add content. And the improvements are just as good, if not as cluttered, as Better Cities.

 

Zumbs Lockpicking mod removes the minigame and actually makes it hard to pick locks without skill. I've run into two incompatibility issues though. The animation causes screwiness with Deadly Reflex 6, and something is preventing it from removing the minigame. I don't know of any fix for the former, but I think the latter might be due to DarN. I'll have to see if DarN has a version of the lockpicking menu it uses that I can replace as well with the Zumbs removal.

 

Are you not using the Persuasion Overhaul? It is an absolute must for immersion in speechcraft.

 

Duke Patrick's Actors Can Miss is built into his Archery mod. You don't have to use both.

I would use his SCA combat mod for melee, but unfortunately it appears to be an entire overhaul. I think I'd rather just stick to Francesco's. It does exactly what I want it to, no more, no less.

 

Liquid Water looks good and is the most customizable water mod I've ever seen. Unfortunately its use of shading means that the water can and will turn invisible in some situations. Still, if you want the water to actually look like water, go with this or that Enhanced water mod if you don't like the shader shenanigans.

 

I'm now using the Map Marker Overhaul for immersion. You can make the maps actually act like maps rather than GPS. Turning off Fast Travel and getting the Tamriel Transportation Network mod goes well together too.

Edited April 30, 2011 by SilvasRuin

[Telyn]

What I think I want is something like this without as many spoilers. An in-game atlas.

 

The Luggage only shows up in homes and inns IF you go locate it at the docks and befriend it. Otherwise it's just an odd looking but handsome trunk, and you can ignore it. If you fear you might weaken and befriend it, you could probably use the console to disable it, but I admit I have not tried that. I can't remember if you can choose not to install The Luggage.

[MarkInMKUK]

While looking forsomething else, I came across this: Real Injury - Alternative Injury System. It certainly looks like a sensible immersion-helper - and a very good way to get killed off easily too!

 

Anybody tested it in play?

 

(I *will* be getting back to my playtest soon - been tied up with real life too much recently - sorry)

[Telyn]

I was tempted by that one because it does seem more realistic to me, but I didn't try it because it doesn't affect npcs, too.

[Mortrix927]

That's a general problem with combat enhancement mods: they tend to only effect the player.

[MarkInMKUK]

Comment / discussion opener ... feel free to chip in and add your own viewpoint.

 

I have a problem ... I keep watching documentaries!

 

UK Channel 4's "Time Team" have just done an episode covering the way both houses and villages (in Britain) have changed over the last few thousand years. Part of this is the evolution of houses from round to rectangular structures, and part of it is the way we "lost" the idea of breaking the house into rooms when the Romans left, and then re-discovered it when villages and towns began to be planned again in the 13-14th century. Boiling down this, and other programmes over the years, plus visits to museums and the like, here's a list of things which don't quite stack up.

 

Things which most houses in Oblivion don't have:

 

(1) A method of warming the house. Even in the frozen north, I've yet to see a house which is actually built around a fireplace to keep warm.

(2) Cooking facilities - usually the same fireplace.

(3) Smoke exits for said fireplace.

(4) Proper internal lighting - most houses rely on add-on sources, not a candle sconce for light to spread from.

(5) Flooring materials other than stone or wood - where are things like rushes or ferns or (for the poorest) dried mud?.

(6) Houses that have "evolved" - with obvious later additions like a staircase added once upper floors became more normal - often added at the same time they moved from a central fireplace to one at the end of the house.

(7) No "older" houses - everything is built in a style which apes the 15th century or so, with nothing obviously older around. Yet the year dfates say that people have been here for rather longer.

(8) Doors which a cow can fit into - up until the 13-14th century, many houses had the livestock area at one end and the human area at the other, and the cattle / sheep / whatever were brought in using the same entryway.

(9) Personal garden - not a pretty "chocolate-box" type as in a couple of cottages, but someplace that the people living in the house could have grown vegetables and fruit to supplement their diet. Typically, a 14th century house would have a (low) walled garden behind, with a veg patch, naybe a few healing herbs, an area to pen livestock, possibly captive birds to eat, certainly rabbits for food, and behind that maybe a shared orchard for cider production - 6 trees would produce enough cider for the family to drink all year.

(10) Forks! Very late addition to the cutlery range - yet the ones in the game are "modern" four-tine types, not the simple two-pronged type which first arrived.

(11) Sewers! WHERE does the water in the sewers come from?

 

As for those "houses" in the Imperial City - how would anyone ever live in them? The shops are windowless, so no-one can see the goods inside unless you spend all your profits on lighting, and the upstairs would be dark and cold as there is no heating. There are no real individual touches to the dwellings - all generic furniture and identical bedding, etc. Argonians and Khajiit like different conditions from humans and elves, yet their furnishings and bedding, etc., are identical to human type. Where are the mementos of home - the desert silks for Khajiit, the lush greenery for Argonians?

 

We obviously can't do much with some structures - they have quests which have events happening in them. But some others we could alter and make "different" - and the clutter could easily be less generic when different races are involved. As a thief, I ahould "know" which race inhabits a building by the clutter, not needing to see them actually asleep before I realise.

 

We have complex glass and metal working. We have window glass, and polished metal, but no mirrors. We have beautifully made wooden bows ... and no beautifully made wooden sculptures. We have houses that are mass-produced (as they are all the same), yet aren't built by anyone. And we have European Gothic churches with all the inherent stonemasonry skills, but almost no use of the same crafts elsewhere in the world. Did they all build stuff then stop doing it and change jobs?

 

So - discussion points. Are we being short-changed by the game because of the above, or are we being given a reasonable "world" given the essential commercial compromises the game had to be produced with? Are the things I highlighted worth improving, or are they things you can mentally gloss over in your own game? Could the in-game houses / villages / living areas be improved, and if so, how should they BE improved? And which mods exist which alter these things for the better, if any?

[Telyn]

I will check and see which mod gave me the two tined forks. There are a few houses like Korana's that will let you cook in the fireplace. I grew up in a house that was actually built around warming by fireplaces on two stories, so if I ever get to where I can create something like that, I will give it a go.

 

Am working on figuring out glass, but I have multiple python installations which is causing me problems with some of the tools.

 

Love the idea of the house/barn, maybe with rushes strewn. You are correct, for a long time that was common. Bit of a controversy about rushes. Some people think the "strewn" rushes were mats because women in long skirts walked on them. Others think the women walked with their skirts held out to the sides perhaps, to raise them just enough not to catch. It does work, have tried it at festivals that have straw on the ground. I tend to agree with scholars that believe that the rushes probably packed down and became mattlike, and the top was freshed with more rushes and herbs. Flowers including roses are sometimes mentioned. Doubt those were woven into mats, I think this reference is to petals because walking on rose stems would not be fun. It's clear from images there were woven mats as well. Perhaps both, but animals and woven mats wouldn't work well with animals.

 

See the drawing inspired by Hans Holbein here. When I was a kid and we'd have long Halloween costumes, every single little girl did this instinctively if she had a long skirt on. Note the dress hook. Might be neat if someone made a dress like that and a walk to go with it.

 

Are we being short-changed? Absolutely not. The game makes no pretenses of being historical, no claims of realism. It is a modern fantasy game about a world that is not our own. Should it be improved upon? That there are now tens of thousands of mods estimated to exist for Oblivion says yes to me. Oblivion is a terrific canvas. I wish I had the skills to create some of the things you mentioned in your post. Some of them could be done right now, like the rabbits and the gardens being more food oriented. There are modder's resources which could help with some of this. Taking it one step at a time.

[MarkInMKUK]

I was thinking further on the stuff above, and came to the conclusion that one thing really missing is the food trading / cooking aspect of life. Currently NPCs just exist, they eat respawning food (if anyone ever bothered to even add that to the AI script) and they wander a pre-determined path every now and then to give the appearance of interaction.

 

How about this as an idea:

 

(1) To a market area: Add several (say 3-5) food traders (possibly only on specific days - maybe even different ones). Their inventory can be respawning at first, maybe later leading to a proper food growing / selling mod.

(2) To accommodation / characters: Add recipes. Add store cupboards with dry foods. Add perishable food storage and "Best before" dates for perishables.

(3) Add to each character (or family group) a number of mouths to feed per day, and a budget.

(4) Send said character shopping for food when stocks are low.

(5) Add regular cooking / eating times into the daily routine. An ideal time period to catch NPCs at home is during the time they need to cook - and a better time to chat than at mealtimes maybe.

 

From this idea:-

 

(A) A beggar, for instance, once they have money will probably immediately go buy food, eat it, and then return to begging. Once they have eaten (say) twice in a day, they will save the money and buy food the next day.

 

(B) A commoner will buy food for their group when they can afford it, checking all local traders to make the best use of their money, and will haggle for the best bargain. Their recipes will be for cheap but filling food, and they may need to buy from three or so separate traders to spend their money wisely. Excess money MAY be used to buy "staples" for the storecupboard to build up a buffer stock for favourite recipes.

 

© A higher class citizen (or servant thereof) will work with higher status recipes, and tend to favour the more up-market merchants, and will order their requirements several days in advance from (probably) just one main merchant. The merchant may then source those requirements from other lower-class traders, and add his markup.

 

At the end of a day, the amount sold will be re-stocked with a slight bonus quantity of the items - say 5% oversupply. As trading continues, the items being traded should show up as more common stock, maybe even at lower prices as they hold more stock and may even have over-stocked. Overstocking will result in smaller re-supply orders, and consequently a fall in stock held - driving prices a little higher. A dynamic economy should result.

 

Obviously a vast simplification of a working system, but it could be tried in (say) a village with four or five houses, and maybe a couple of regular food traders.

 

Of course, then we need a person who is gifted at scripting AND feels inspired by the idea enough to work on it.

Edited May 10, 2011 by MarkInMKUK

[Telyn]

Think about your food supply chain made me want to expand that even further.This is kind of ambitious, but suppose in shops you could buy some generic goods instantly, but if you went to a shop and wanted something fancy, like a silk robe, you'd be measured for it, pay, and come back later when it is ready.Tinker goods, pottery, simple glass, simple low quality weapons, baskets and other cheap containers, and low end armor you could buy ready made, but anything quality would have to be produced for you, or the perhaps shopkeeper knows adventurer types who will go rob tombs to get some of the rarer goods. Maybe you could become one of those adventurers, or a seamstress, a smith's apprentice, jobs that actually contribute to the economy.

[MarkInMKUK]

Think about your food supply chain made me want to expand that even further.This is kind of ambitious, but suppose in shops you could buy some generic goods instantly, but if you went to a shop and wanted something fancy, like a silk robe, you'd be measured for it, pay, and come back later when it is ready.Tinker goods, pottery, simple glass, simple low quality weapons, baskets and other cheap containers, and low end armor you could buy ready made, but anything quality would have to be produced for you, or the perhaps shopkeeper knows adventurer types who will go rob tombs to get some of the rarer goods. Maybe you could become one of those adventurers, or a seamstress, a smith's apprentice, jobs that actually contribute to the economy.

 

I like the way you think!

 

The idea of off-the-peg vs. made-to-measure is a good one, and would add an air of realism which is somewhat missing at the moment. Making yourself into one of the "gofers" would be a good move too - would expand some of the merchant quest mods nicely.

 

I wonder if TheNiceOne fancies complicating the heck out of his nice neat "Enhanced Economy" mod...?