No attributes? Am I the only one Worried?

[hector530]

Only things I hated from Fallout 3/New Vegas leveling system was the removal of athleticism and acrobatics and the stupid VATS garbage that caused game crashes and really simplified combat for the most part. Sorry but unless there's magic or some kind of legendary god-like skills involved in temporary time freezes, VATS just seemed very out of place for a game such as Fallout. For the most part, VATS made killing too easy for me; that's why I avoided using it.

 

 

im pretty sure fallout 1 and 2 didnt have athleticism and acrobatics skills, also i love VATS and in both FO3 and NV my game has NEVER crashed in vats. in fact my game seems to get higher fps while in it

 

"there's magic or some kind of legendary god-like skills involved in temporary time freezes, VATS just seemed very out of place for a game such as Fallout"

 

....umm.... weren't the first 2 fallout turn based games....

Edited April 29, 2011 by hector530

[gpstr1]

To the OP - no - you're not the only one who's worried.

 

In virtually every thread I've seen on this topic, one of the most common statements I see is people who say that theyr'e glad attributes are gone, because that means no more grinding for +5s. Let's look at that grinding for +5s thing.

 

First - aside from the most obsessive of powergamers, nobody had to grind for +5s simply because attributes were there, so removing them really does nothing to address why people DID have to do so. It wasn't just because they were there - it was because of a combination of Oblvion's broken leveling system and level scaling. Between those two things, if anyone made the "mistake" of using a build with a few too many non-combat skills, and the further "mistake" of actually using those skills, he was going to end up leveling up before he'd even had a chance to increase his combat skills. Next thing he knows, he's facing a troll or a mountain lion, armed with nothing more than speechcraft and security. THAT is why it's beneficial to grind for +5s - not simply because the attributes are there, but because, if one simply levels up at the game's pace, one runs a very real risk of leveling up without sufficient combat skills and getting killed. Repeatedly. There were and are two primary ways to deal with that (setting aside leveling mods) - to efficiently level (grind for +5s) or to use a most-used skills as minors build. The benefit of both of those approaches is ultimately the same - to put off leveling long enough to be sure to gain sufficient skill and attribute increases to deal with the leveled opponents one was sure to face.

 

Now - skip ahead to Skyrim. Yes - no more attributes means no more grinding for +5s, simply because they won't be there to grind for. But it doesn't mean that the fundamental reason that people did it won't be there. Level scaling has been altered, but it has no been eliminated, so it's still possible that one could level up too quickly and end up facing opponents that are exaggeratedly powerful. Majors and minors have been eliminated, but what that means is that a most-used-skills as minors build is now impossible. Instead, all skill use will count toward level-up. Without minors, that means that there will no longer be skills that are "safe" to use - that is, that won't lead to a level up. Use ANY skill - any at all - and it will contribute to a level up.

 

Now - suppose, just for the moment, that Skyrim's leveling system is also broken - that the game ends up set up in such a way that if you play a thief for instance, and spend a bit too much time at a given level picking locks and sneaking, you'll get a level up from those skills, and before you've even had a chance to increase your weapon skills. And imagine that the level scaling that will still be in the game ends up doing the same thing that Oblivion's did - you find yourself facing much more powerful creatures equipped with nothing more than lockpicking skill and sneaking skill. What are you going to do then? You won't be able to grind for +5s, because they won't be there. You won't be able to slow your leveling speed, since it's fixed - all skill use counts towards leveling. You won't be able to focus on minor skills because there are no minor skills. ALL you'll be able to do is keep leveling up at the game's pace and keep getting your ass handed to you by the increasingly more powerful opponents.

 

That's why I'm worried.

[Kaskas]

That wrong gpstr1, you'll always have a chance to raise your skills in these games, if you have no combat training and go fighting you will get a beating for sure, you've been a merchant or a thief or a smith so you would have lots of money and little combat experience, what do you spect? Owning cratures with you common peaceful townfolk? if you want to go fighting visit a trainer or raise those skills yourself, you wont level much by doing so, because raising a skill that it's low dont dont affect level that much, at the end you will have enough skill at combat to fight those creatures.

[gpstr1]

That wrong gpstr1, you'll always have a chance to raise your skills in these games,

The only thing I knew for certain when I wrote that post is that somebody who, like me, hasn't in fact played the game, would nevertheless try to tell me I was wrong. ;)

 

if you have no combat training and go fighting you will get a beating for sure, you've been a merchant or a thief or a smith so you would have lots of money and little combat experience, what do you spect? Owning cratures with you common peaceful townfolk?

Of course I don't "expect" that - that's not the point. Past games were set up such that if you happened to use a few of your non-combat major skills a bit too much at any given time, you'd level up, like it or not. It's not that people set out with the goal in mind of doing that - it just happened. In Skyrim, since major skills are gone, now if you use a few of ANY of your non-combat skills a bit too much, you'll level up. You don't even have the chance of safely using them if they're minors - ALL of them will count toward level up. If it's balanced well, it could work - if it's not, it won't - it'll result in the exact same problem that happened in past games. Not that people set out to end up leveled up too far with too many non-combat skills to show for it, but that they just end up that way because that's the way the leveling works.

 

if you want to go fighting visit a trainer or raise those skills yourself, you wont level much by doing so, because raising a skill that it's low dont dont affect level that much,

How much is "that much?" We (and that includes you) don't know how much that is. Yes - Beth has said that lower leveled skills affect leveling less, but they still affect leveling. You WILL still level up while you're trying to catch your combat skills up. Will you level up slowly enough that you can succeed at that? We in fact don't know. And my point is that IF that's the case, then both of the standard ways that people dealt with that very problem in Oblivion - efficient leveling and most-use-skills as minors - will be impossible to do in Skyrim.

 

I'm not saying that anything is going to be any particular way - we don't have the game - we don't know. I'm saying that IF the leveling system is broken, then, since it depends on all skills rather than just majors and since attributes are gone so skills are the only things that count, we're going to have that many fewer ways to compensate for it. We're going to be that much more likely to be wholly at its mercy. And that concerns me.

[Vagrant0]

Now - suppose, just for the moment, that Skyrim's leveling system is also broken - that the game ends up set up in such a way that if you play a thief for instance, and spend a bit too much time at a given level picking locks and sneaking, you'll get a level up from those skills, and before you've even had a chance to increase your weapon skills. And imagine that the level scaling that will still be in the game ends up doing the same thing that Oblivion's did - you find yourself facing much more powerful creatures equipped with nothing more than lockpicking skill and sneaking skill. What are you going to do then? You won't be able to grind for +5s, because they won't be there. You won't be able to slow your leveling speed, since it's fixed - all skill use counts towards leveling. You won't be able to focus on minor skills because there are no minor skills. ALL you'll be able to do is keep leveling up at the game's pace and keep getting your ass handed to you by the increasingly more powerful opponents.

 

That's why I'm worried.

While this is true, it doesn't acknowledge the fact that building up other skills than your highest ones won't count much toward your level. What it also doesn't acknowledge is that unlike in previous games, this system favors both a specialist approach (focusing only on a handful of skills) as well as a generalist approach (having a few higher skills but more variety among middle skills). The specialist approach can allow a player to become very strong in one area and use those strategies to defeat opponents. The generalist approach allows the player to employ a wider range of tactics in their play. Combined with perks and the combat system, the player should still maintain a reasonable level of advantage over most opponents faced while still having difficulty with harder opponents.

 

Really, the only place any problem can occur is in how it is implemented and based on experiences with Oblivion and Fallout I suspect that measures will be taken to prevent the oversights that allowed players to become so quickly outclassed in Oblivion, or forced to face nearly invincible opponents due to how health was being scaled.

[gpstr1]

While this is true, it doesn't acknowledge the fact that building up other skills than your highest ones won't count much toward your level.

In point of fact (as I addressed in my next post after that one) we don't know what the difference is between the rate of skill increase between lower and higher leveled skills. All we know is that lower level skills will nominally count for less - we have absolutely no idea how much less, or if it will be enough less for a character who's invested a bit too much into non-combat skills to ever be able to catch up. It's certainly possible, but we have absolutely no way of knowing if it will actually work or not. All we can do is hope that Bethesda has balanced it well, but not to put too fine a point on it - their record in that department is not very good.

 

What it also doesn't acknowledge is that unlike in previous games, this system favors both a specialist approach (focusing only on a handful of skills) as well as a generalist approach (having a few higher skills but more variety among middle skills). The specialist approach can allow a player to become very strong in one area and use those strategies to defeat opponents. The generalist approach allows the player to employ a wider range of tactics in their play. Combined with perks and the combat system, the player should still maintain a reasonable level of advantage over most opponents faced while still having difficulty with harder opponents.

Since we don't have the game in hand, we actually have no idea at all what it will reward or punish or encourage or discourage or how any of a range of builds might or might not work, so that's all pure speculation. It's also beside the point. Again - my concern is that the leveling system MIGHT be broken. The system might well end up working as well as they claim, but it might just as easily NOT end up doing so, and to be blunt - if the system fails to live up to their hype, it certainly wouldn't be the first time. And again, my concern is that IF the leveling system is indeed broken, then with everything dependent on skills, attributes eliminated entirely and with no minor skills to increase freely, we're going to have that many fewer ways to compensate for it and are going to end up that much more at its mercy.

 

I'm not saying (or more accurately, speculating, since that's all any of us can do now) that the system will be broken, so counter-speculation that it won't be is entirely beside the point. I'm merely pointing out that IF it's broken, it's going to be that much harder to get around it. And stating, sincerely, that that concerns me.

[InuyashaFE]

Mods fix everything.

 

Remember Oblivion XP?

[Kaskas]

Since we dont have the game in our hands all we can do is guessing, and in my opinion your approach is utterly wrong, like nothing was reworked from Oblivion, when the developers has said that leveling and encounter systems has all being reworked. So at this day i will carve in the stone that you are wrong.

[zarniwooop]

I'm not just worried, I'm disgusted.

 

There's no such thing as easier access AND more in depth.

 

The only thing it does is make it more understandable for people that have never played an RPG.

 

I don't understand why they would import the WoW tree system. It just doesn't fit at all.

[BladeValant546]

Actually, doing the math and other things this system will not work as it does not work on paper. Most of the time anything that does not work well on paper will not work in practice. This is not organic as it very straight forward and very limiting, you will be at the mercy of the game and it has a very large margin of error. While there is a small chance it could work, but it leaves me worried at the fact if it messed up the game will feel shallow, less never equals more ever. The lack of skills is why i am worried lack of decent attribute system invisible or visible is also disturbing considering things like dex. Lets just hope Perks work like Feats in pen and paper. But thanks for the responses both sides have good points well have to wait and see sadly I not getting this game on launch I want to wait and see how it works (sorry to many games have been bad and I cannot return computer games *looks at Dragon Age 2*)