Does Sneak 4 make Muffled armor mods redundant?

[junco577]

I've seen arguments saying that muffled armor mods do not impact sound detection with Sneak 4 as the perk removes the running sound penalty. I've also seen arguments that walking still makes sound, and muffled reduces that sound. I sneak while "running", not sprinting, and would like to know definitively whether muffled armor further reduces sound detection once you have the Sneak 4 perk. Google searching failed me so I'm turning to the community here, thanks!

[Moraelin]

Walking definitely makes a sound, and Sneak 4 just turns the sound level down from running noise to walking noise. So, yes, Muffled still helps.

[wax2k]

And does Muffled stack? So does it make sense to have it on more than one piece?

[Moraelin]

Yes, muffled most definitely does stack. I've been experimenting quite a bit with that, including my shadowed and muffled power armour paints. And if there's something that makes it challenging to muffle, it's stomping around in half a ton of steel :tongue:

 

Bearing in mind, of course, that muffled is just half the equation. Don't ignore the shadowed part. But you already knew that.

[junco577]

In my experience, I'm to the point where even without muffled mods I can sneak around right next to enemies and they will not hear me. As long as I deal with light/sight I suppose I don't really see a need for such mods UNTIL I attack. Which brings me to another question: Does further decreasing movement noise impact attack detection?

 

In other words, I'm quiet as a mouse while sneaking up, but when I actually go to attack I assume that makes noise too. I'm currently playing a melee build, and as long as I attack and OHKO a NPC out of SIGHT, the other enemies generally don't seem to alert... so it wouldn't really impact me, but I'm curious. Even when using a stealth boy to make sight detection difficult, NPCs still see other NPCs being hurt... which I can't really do much about, and have to hope for good timing/ patrol routes.

[Moraelin]

Well, they most certainly notice when they get their pal's brain all over the floor, and do start looking for you. Noise level however can make the difference between going to "CAUTION" or straight to "DANGER".

 

I'm not sure if muffled affects the weapon noise itself. BUT... when you go to "CAUTION", they're actively looking for you. The detection threshold is lowered a lot. They need a lot less noise or for that matter light to detect you. Generally, if they look directly at you, they will see you even if you're all shadowed. (Though not with chameleon or Stealth Boy.) And if you move, well, they'll pay a lot more attention than normal to sound.

 

Which is really when I appreciate Muffled the most, myself. First sniper shot is easy. They don't detect me even without Muffled. It's when they go into looking for me mode, that I kinda like having slightly more chance to duck behind a corner without being heard.

[robhartman9]

Moraelin's shadowed power armor mod is awesome. There is an effect on shadowed that makes you harder to detect when not moving. I am not exactly sure how that works but I have seen the effect. Strangely line of sight did not seem to matter. Using the recon display for a power armor helmet or a recon scope you can track enemies that are out of your LOS. When not even employing sneak mode I have sighted a recon lock on an enemy then moved to gain better position and seen them react or detect me. Stop moving, they loose you and go back to their routine as if you had engaged a stealth boy. Another example of the effect was after using a terminal I stopped playing to roll a smoke but did not pause. A legendary gunner walked into the room behind me and stood there looking right at me. The camera went into its 360 pan mode and I realized my predicament. I turned around to face the gunner and he just stood there looking at me or through me as if I were invisible. Using a terminal kicks you out of sneak mode so I was just standing there and turning around does not seem to count as movement. Like I said not sure how it works but shadowed seems to work kind of like a stealth boy if not moving. The sneak perk maxed out with a full suit of shadowed armor and you are a ghost.

[Moraelin]

Well, sorta. Shadowed has nothing to do with moving, or not per se. Essentially

 

How detectable you are = how visible you are + how much noise you make

 

There aren't actually separate detection checks for the two. Just the sum is compared to the enemy's perception (with a bonus if they're actively looking for you.) There are all sorts of tweaks in there, like that how visible you are is zero if they don't have line of sight on you, or that noise is lowered if there's a wall in between, but that's the basic gist: it calculates the total, then compares it to the perception.

 

Shadowed influences the visible part, Muffled influences the noise part.

 

So if you stand still, you're just not making noise, so the sum is lower.

[robhartman9]

During one of the load screens I saw a blurb "Shadowed armor makes you harder to detect while not moving" I guess that's true if somewhat misleading. The 5th level of the sneak perk can makes enemies who are actively looking for you loose you if you go to sneak mode but I have seen this happen just by stopping. Then there is the chameleon armor that makes you invisible when not moving. So what I take from what you said is the game is calculating the enemies ability to detect you and sneaking just gives you a bonus for that. Any of these modifiers still work even when not actively trying to sneak. My PC with an Agility total of 14 and 6 pieces of shadowed muffled armor is pretty sneaky even when he's not trying. He can hide in plain sight. Now that I understand a little better how it works I guess it all makes sense.

[Moraelin]

Well, as you say, technically it's not wrong, since standing still does reduce their detection chance. But, yeah, it's one of those things that were never explained in-game in any of the Beth games ever. Without poking into the formulas and values -- which I had to do for the Supah Ninja mod -- you won't get the game to explain WTH you're doing right or wrong.

 

It's kinda like trying to get a straight answer from Bobbi No-Nose :wink:

 

That said, bear in mind again that if they can't see you, which includes looking the other way, your visibility to them is hard set at zero. It becomes just a matter of whether they hear you. If you're also muffled, well, you may well just not register as anything unusual.

 

Sneaking DOES lower your total detection value, but it's quite possible to be below the threshold even when not sneaking. If all there is, is some faint steps in the distance behind a wall, well, the poor barstard may well just think that it's another raider doing the rounds.

 

I'm also STRONGLY suspecting that, just like in Skyrim, the level difference is actually factored in detection. If you're level 20 and try to sneak past a level 70 legendary gunner in Quincy (and, yeah, I've seen that kind of levels there), you'll have a hard time staying undetected, while if you're level 50 and trying to sneak past a level 10 raider, you can probably just walk up to them from behind and tap them on the shoulder without even sneaking.