Fallout 4 Survival Mode Beta

[xaosbob]

Here's the story. Fallout, like any other game of this sort of mechanical complexity, tracks thousands of shifting variables, from a twitch on your mouse changing what is on-screen to NPC detection and combat AI to the unending changes wrought simply by playing the game--the precise location of every moved, placed, or destroyed item or actor, quest stages and dialog threading, all the sounds and music, NPC interactions not involving the player, and on and on.

 

This game is being played on tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of differing computer builds. It would not be far from true to claim that nearly every computer running this (not the consoles, plainly) has a different architecture, from gaming monsters first powered up on November 11 to aging workhorses that are technically below the minimum specs and running it just fine (like mine).

 

So OF COURSE they are disabling mods and the console. The survival patch is a BETA, not a release. It is opt-in for TESTING because it is not ready for full release. Meaning that, if you want to play with mods and console access, you absolutely can--simply do not opt in to the beta. If you are not beta testing the patch, you do not get to squeak about being denied something that is rightfully yours by virtue of owning the game--it is not yours yet, because it HASN'T BEEN RELEASED. When it is, you will get it. Simple as that.

 

They would not be able to get any meaningful feedback if, in addition to the game's internal complexity, compounded by a functionally-limitless variety of platforms upon which it operates, their testers were also using mods from a staggering library of homebrewed, technically hacked (beautifully, in many cases) modifications that were not developed on software that Beth developed and is familiar with. They want to know how the changes affect the game itself, not all the myriad things we modders and mod-users have done to it. Mods make it impossible to tell if something is working as intended, because it adds uncountably more variables to the mix.

 

And finally, YES the console is disabled, because they don't want us to fix the problems we encounter--they WANT US TO TELL THEM ABOUT THE PROBLEMS WE ENCOUNTER so they can fix them! If we just fix it ourselves with a few keystrokes, we likely won't tell them about the problem, bug, or break. If we don't tell them, we are FAILING AT BETA TESTING, and we have no room to complain if they do not fix that thing we experienced but didn't tell them about. Locking out the console is simply a way to encourage diligent reporting.

 

BETA TEST. If you want to be a grown-up and help Bethesda do this damned update right, then be a tester and understand that it has to be done in a certain way so you can give them meaningful data. If you do not want to do that, if you just want to play, then don't choose to test systems you have no intentions of testing. When they release it, you can play it to your heart's content then, and make your summary judgments, confident and secure in the knowledge that you know so much better how things should have been done. Oh wait.

 

That's the point of f**king testing, innit?

[Dasangel]

Finding it pretty challenging and fun. Wanted to go back to my old games which are heavily modded and.... can't. They'd be stuffed without their mods.

 

So, just Opt Out, you say?

 

Not possible. The Opt In bar on Steam under Properties/Beta does not toggle.

[Eruadur]

In response to post #36127135.

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xaosbob wrote: Here's the story. Fallout, like any other game of this sort of mechanical complexity, tracks thousands of shifting variables, from a twitch on your mouse changing what is on-screen to NPC detection and combat AI to the unending changes wrought simply by playing the game--the precise location of every moved, placed, or destroyed item or actor, quest stages and dialog threading, all the sounds and music, NPC interactions not involving the player, and on and on.

This game is being played on tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of differing computer builds. It would not be far from true to claim that nearly every computer running this (not the consoles, plainly) has a different architecture, from gaming monsters first powered up on November 11 to aging workhorses that are technically below the minimum specs and running it just fine (like mine).

So OF COURSE they are disabling mods and the console. The survival patch is a BETA, not a release. It is opt-in for TESTING because it is not ready for full release. Meaning that, if you want to play with mods and console access, you absolutely can--simply do not opt in to the beta. If you are not beta testing the patch, you do not get to squeak about being denied something that is rightfully yours by virtue of owning the game--it is not yours yet, because it HASN'T BEEN RELEASED. When it is, you will get it. Simple as that.

They would not be able to get any meaningful feedback if, in addition to the game's internal complexity, compounded by a functionally-limitless variety of platforms upon which it operates, their testers were also using mods from a staggering library of homebrewed, technically hacked (beautifully, in many cases) modifications that were not developed on software that Beth developed and is familiar with. They want to know how the changes affect the game itself, not all the myriad things we modders and mod-users have done to it. Mods make it impossible to tell if something is working as intended, because it adds uncountably more variables to the mix.

And finally, YES the console is disabled, because they don't want us to fix the problems we encounter--they WANT US TO TELL THEM ABOUT THE PROBLEMS WE ENCOUNTER so they can fix them! If we just fix it ourselves with a few keystrokes, we likely won't tell them about the problem, bug, or break. If we don't tell them, we are FAILING AT BETA TESTING, and we have no room to complain if they do not fix that thing we experienced but didn't tell them about. Locking out the console is simply a way to encourage diligent reporting.

BETA TEST. If you want to be a grown-up and help Bethesda do this damned update right, then be a tester and understand that it has to be done in a certain way so you can give them meaningful data. If you do not want to do that, if you just want to play, then don't choose to test systems you have no intentions of testing. When they release it, you can play it to your heart's content then, and make your summary judgments, confident and secure in the knowledge that you know so much better how things should have been done. Oh wait.

That's the point of f**king testing, innit?

@xaosbob
Seriously dude, if THIS^ doesn't get the message across then nothing will....

I salute you sir for exactly telling it like it is.
My compliments on a story well told :)

Maybe the 4th graders in here will understand now ??
Every other whiny comment will be obsolete after reading this :)
Like : 'mwééh!! They deleted my móóóds'
( read that with an Eric Cartman voice and it's even more accurate ) Edited March 30, 2016 by Eruadur

[RustyXXL]

In response to post #36127135. #36127445 is also a reply to the same post.

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xaosbob wrote: Here's the story. Fallout, like any other game of this sort of mechanical complexity, tracks thousands of shifting variables, from a twitch on your mouse changing what is on-screen to NPC detection and combat AI to the unending changes wrought simply by playing the game--the precise location of every moved, placed, or destroyed item or actor, quest stages and dialog threading, all the sounds and music, NPC interactions not involving the player, and on and on.

This game is being played on tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of differing computer builds. It would not be far from true to claim that nearly every computer running this (not the consoles, plainly) has a different architecture, from gaming monsters first powered up on November 11 to aging workhorses that are technically below the minimum specs and running it just fine (like mine).

So OF COURSE they are disabling mods and the console. The survival patch is a BETA, not a release. It is opt-in for TESTING because it is not ready for full release. Meaning that, if you want to play with mods and console access, you absolutely can--simply do not opt in to the beta. If you are not beta testing the patch, you do not get to squeak about being denied something that is rightfully yours by virtue of owning the game--it is not yours yet, because it HASN'T BEEN RELEASED. When it is, you will get it. Simple as that.

They would not be able to get any meaningful feedback if, in addition to the game's internal complexity, compounded by a functionally-limitless variety of platforms upon which it operates, their testers were also using mods from a staggering library of homebrewed, technically hacked (beautifully, in many cases) modifications that were not developed on software that Beth developed and is familiar with. They want to know how the changes affect the game itself, not all the myriad things we modders and mod-users have done to it. Mods make it impossible to tell if something is working as intended, because it adds uncountably more variables to the mix.

And finally, YES the console is disabled, because they don't want us to fix the problems we encounter--they WANT US TO TELL THEM ABOUT THE PROBLEMS WE ENCOUNTER so they can fix them! If we just fix it ourselves with a few keystrokes, we likely won't tell them about the problem, bug, or break. If we don't tell them, we are FAILING AT BETA TESTING, and we have no room to complain if they do not fix that thing we experienced but didn't tell them about. Locking out the console is simply a way to encourage diligent reporting.

BETA TEST. If you want to be a grown-up and help Bethesda do this damned update right, then be a tester and understand that it has to be done in a certain way so you can give them meaningful data. If you do not want to do that, if you just want to play, then don't choose to test systems you have no intentions of testing. When they release it, you can play it to your heart's content then, and make your summary judgments, confident and secure in the knowledge that you know so much better how things should have been done. Oh wait.

That's the point of f**king testing, innit?

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Eruadur wrote: @xaosbob
Seriously dude, if THIS^ doesn't get the message across then nothing will....

I salute you sir for exactly telling it like it is.
My compliments on a story well told :)

Maybe the 4th graders in here will understand now ??
Every other whiny comment will be obsolete after reading this :)
Like : 'mwééh!! They deleted my móóóds'
( read that with an Eric Cartman voice and it's even more accurate )

All nice and dandy, and very well written, BUT :P

I finished All major and most of the minor content (including Automatron) at least 3-5 times, a lot of it even more, up to 8 times. The only thing keeping me interested in the game is modding and content(!) DLCs. Take away modding and this game is dead for me, as is the beta. A survival mode alone doesn't offer enough "new" for me to play the game again. On the other hand I'd really like to test the survival mode. In general I did enjoy siomilar gameplay (i.e. FNV and Skyrim with RND and Frostfall), and I might have been able to give at least some feedback about Elements I do or don't enjoy.
Well, anyway, I got more than enough gameplay for my money one way or another, so I'll just wait and see until it moves out of beta, and either the game keeps alive for me or it won't.
I'm not complaining either, as I said, I got my moneys worth, and I don't need to clinge to any game, just sharing my opinion. ;) Edited March 30, 2016 by RustyXXL

[Eruadur]

In response to post #36113280. #36113495, #36113620, #36113775, #36113885, #36115700, #36115745, #36116315, #36124765, #36125685, #36126565, #36127040 are all replies on the same post.

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ellsdragon wrote: B*tch b*tch b*tch.
Seriously, that's what I'm getting out of almost 90% of the comments on here. "Mods are necessary, I can't live without them. It's stupid that they turned off the console, I'll need that too." It's a damn BETA. They want people to test it and see about how they can break it before allowing mods. And the console? If you can't play without cheating, that's not playing.
I can't even come up with a proper comparison because of the sheer amount of stupid being crammed into this community. If you have a problem with Beth wanting to try and fix the damn game, get off your ass and MAKE a damn game. Then you can understand how Beth feels when someone bitches about how sh*t your game is.

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kuhaica wrote: the console is mainly a debugger...

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jaitsu wrote: So in other words, ellsdragon, "WHAAA WHAAA WHY DOESN'T EVERYONE PLAY THE SAME AS ME I FEEL LIKE I HAVE THE RIGHT TO PASS JUDGEMENT BECAUSE PEOPLE USE SOMETHING I DON"T WAAAAHHAAHAAHAHA"


Pull your head from your ass.

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Tantalus010 wrote: Normally I'd totally agree with you, but with the number of minor issues and bugs in Bethesda's games, the console actually IS a necessity. That's why I'm opting out on this one.

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mcchuggernaut wrote: Yeah, without the console how can I get the broken level 4 merchants to even show up at my settlements? Or get the brahmin or Preston off the roof of my house? Bethesda has known about these problems since release, but hasn't bothered to fix them yet. The console isn't for cheating in Fallout 4, it's basically for fixing all the bugs.

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Zzyxzz wrote: You know nothing Jon Snow, eeeh ellsdragon

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Ellendar12 wrote: The thing is though the point of a beta is for those bugs to actually annoy you enough that you actually report them. I imagine with console enabled every time you hit a minor bug many people will just console fix it and keep on rolling rather than giving bethesda the information they need to actually fix things. Remember, a beta isn't put our for our benefit, betas exist for the benefit of the development team and it isn't a surprise that it is designed for their benefit rather than our enjoyment.

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hivKORN wrote: you cant test these features
https://bethesda.net/#en/events/game/fallout-4s-all-new-survival-mode/2016/03/29/96
without one bug who was reported since release day.
Is it so hard to understand!?,
Console is debugger and a helper to get the id of an problematic object as accurately as possible. Instead of posting an description where they can find rock x and tree y and hole z in worldmesh.
But the report of the right id will change nothing.
Bethesda will always remain Bethesda.
"War never changes" :D

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TrentTheWanderer wrote: So what you are saying is that you're surprised this modding community wants to play with mods?

I think you might need to spend some time re-evaluating your expectations.

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Kilator wrote: Maybe if bethesda wanst so freaking lazy and optimized their damned piece of shaite game. These mods give me over 30 fps improvement. I literally cant play without them.

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julio131 wrote: with mods enable, all the change will be overwrite by mods(i think all things(food,med...) will add a new flag(survive mode), just like they did in FNV). Therefore, you can't test s**t in the beta if your mods don't update for it.
so yeah, I think they need to force to disable mods in the beta.

but when it comes the stable update, I hope we can use mods.

btw, I use console for better screenshot

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Percephere wrote: They really should let us test it with mods. What with their plan to release mods to consoles,it would be disastrous if they ran into a whole bunch of problems with it at launch because they didn't test it thoroughly.

Seems like everyone forgot about the fact that mods aren't officially supported yet?
Not until the GECK or CK is out? Is the CK out? Hmmm?

So people are whining like a bunch of babies about something that they aren't supposed to be using yet and they get all ballistic about when you tell them?

There used to be a time when people in The Nexus Community were more grown up about this...
It's that "entitlement era" isn't it ? :)

[20rakah]

In response to post #36127385.

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Dasangel wrote: Finding it pretty challenging and fun. Wanted to go back to my old games which are heavily modded and.... can't. They'd be stuffed without their mods.

So, just Opt Out, you say?

Not possible. The Opt In bar on Steam under Properties/Beta does not toggle.

try verifying the cashe, restarting steam or reinstalling F4. failing that delete clientregistry.blob and see if that helps Edited March 30, 2016 by 20rakah

[Eruadur]

In response to post #36127135. #36127445, #36127625 are all replies on the same post.

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xaosbob wrote: Here's the story. Fallout, like any other game of this sort of mechanical complexity, tracks thousands of shifting variables, from a twitch on your mouse changing what is on-screen to NPC detection and combat AI to the unending changes wrought simply by playing the game--the precise location of every moved, placed, or destroyed item or actor, quest stages and dialog threading, all the sounds and music, NPC interactions not involving the player, and on and on.

This game is being played on tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of differing computer builds. It would not be far from true to claim that nearly every computer running this (not the consoles, plainly) has a different architecture, from gaming monsters first powered up on November 11 to aging workhorses that are technically below the minimum specs and running it just fine (like mine).

So OF COURSE they are disabling mods and the console. The survival patch is a BETA, not a release. It is opt-in for TESTING because it is not ready for full release. Meaning that, if you want to play with mods and console access, you absolutely can--simply do not opt in to the beta. If you are not beta testing the patch, you do not get to squeak about being denied something that is rightfully yours by virtue of owning the game--it is not yours yet, because it HASN'T BEEN RELEASED. When it is, you will get it. Simple as that.

They would not be able to get any meaningful feedback if, in addition to the game's internal complexity, compounded by a functionally-limitless variety of platforms upon which it operates, their testers were also using mods from a staggering library of homebrewed, technically hacked (beautifully, in many cases) modifications that were not developed on software that Beth developed and is familiar with. They want to know how the changes affect the game itself, not all the myriad things we modders and mod-users have done to it. Mods make it impossible to tell if something is working as intended, because it adds uncountably more variables to the mix.

And finally, YES the console is disabled, because they don't want us to fix the problems we encounter--they WANT US TO TELL THEM ABOUT THE PROBLEMS WE ENCOUNTER so they can fix them! If we just fix it ourselves with a few keystrokes, we likely won't tell them about the problem, bug, or break. If we don't tell them, we are FAILING AT BETA TESTING, and we have no room to complain if they do not fix that thing we experienced but didn't tell them about. Locking out the console is simply a way to encourage diligent reporting.

BETA TEST. If you want to be a grown-up and help Bethesda do this damned update right, then be a tester and understand that it has to be done in a certain way so you can give them meaningful data. If you do not want to do that, if you just want to play, then don't choose to test systems you have no intentions of testing. When they release it, you can play it to your heart's content then, and make your summary judgments, confident and secure in the knowledge that you know so much better how things should have been done. Oh wait.

That's the point of f**king testing, innit?

  Quote

Eruadur wrote: @xaosbob
Seriously dude, if THIS^ doesn't get the message across then nothing will....

I salute you sir for exactly telling it like it is.
My compliments on a story well told :)

Maybe the 4th graders in here will understand now ??
Every other whiny comment will be obsolete after reading this :)
Like : 'mwééh!! They deleted my móóóds'
( read that with an Eric Cartman voice and it's even more accurate )

  Quote

RustyXXL wrote: All nice and dandy, and very well written, BUT :P

I finished All major and most of the minor content (including Automatron) at least 3-5 times, a lot of it even more, up to 8 times. The only thing keeping me interested in the game is modding and content(!) DLCs. Take away modding and this game is dead for me, as is the beta. A survival mode alone doesn't offer enough "new" for me to play the game again. On the other hand I'd really like to test the survival mode. In general I did enjoy siomilar gameplay (i.e. FNV and Skyrim with RND and Frostfall), and I might have been able to give at least some feedback about Elements I do or don't enjoy.
Well, anyway, I got more than enough gameplay for my money one way or another, so I'll just wait and see until it moves out of beta, and either the game keeps alive for me or it won't.
I'm not complaining either, as I said, I got my moneys worth, and I don't need to clinge to any game, just sharing my opinion. ;)

@rustxxl

Just one thing :
Seems like everyone forgot about the fact that mods aren't officially supported yet?
Not until the GECK or CK is out? Is the CK out? Hmmm? No it is not.

Then again mate: go play with those mods man! I do too!
Just don't opt in on the survival beta man! Really ...!

Really, it's all so simple when you stop and think about it :)

[Eruadur]

In response to post #36127025.

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AngryGamer94 wrote: bethesda can't even make a proper survival mode without messing up the game
I'll wait for the talented moders of the nexus to make a REAL survival mod.

Yes they did and they are testing it now... Haven't you heard about it? It's all over the Nexus.
It's in between all of those whiny messages from 4th graders complaining about how Bethesda broke the game they play with unsupported mods with a survival update which hasn't been released yet becAUSE IT'S STILL IN BETA !!!!!!!
Gddmnt!!!!

[dikr]

In response to post #36125380. #36126925, #36126990 are all replies on the same post.

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jet4571 wrote: Everyone making an excuse for the beta patch disabling mods kindly explain why every single official not beta patch for FO4 has attempted to disable mods by clearing the plugins.txt.

Please explain why all previous Bethesda titles when they released a beta patch did not disable mods but all of a sudden FO4 needs a %100 vanilla no mod state and all those other games didn't.

Please explain why NMM has to uncheck and check the read only flag on the plugins.txt for every single not beta official patch.

I do get the logic of needing a clean environment for a beta test but that does defeat the very purpose of an open beta. Bethesda has the ability to do a vanilla beta test in house. Open betas are to see if something outside can mess up the programing and since this game is to be modded then mods is needed to see if the patch wont be more of a problem than a fix. Take 3DS Max or Photoshop, when they do an open beta they are not forcing you to use the base program, they expect and want plugins for them to be used. Yes both Photoshop and 3DS Max can use mods, they are called plugins but in reality they are mods. Autodesk and Adobe want their software tested in a real world environment because they are making patches and updates for that very environment. If they only made patches for their programs without plugins they will miss a whole lot of problems only they can fix. A video game needing real world environment testing is no different than the very tools used to make that video game. Think before making excuses for Bethesda. Bethesda doesn't need you to make excuses for them because they don't care if mod users complain to begin with.

My theory on why Bethesda is trying to disable mods is... duht dun duh.. Consoles. To make console mods possible and the nice little addition to the main menu I believe they are planning on doing away with the old way of enabling mods and have that all handled via the main menu. and they falsely believe that we will get stuck in the old way and not adapt. That's just my theory and it is the only one I can come up with that makes sense considering Bethesda's history.

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dikr wrote: It's a pain for us PC gamers to play without our beloved mods but I understand that their first priority is finding bugs and optimizing gameplay in the vanilla version. It's only a few months after launch and the game still requires a lot of fine tuning. Let alone a new expansion with new mechanics and other profound changes. Mods would open up a whole new can of worms of possible conflicts and would only serve to complicate and diffuse the feedback at this stage.

The best we can do at this time is seriously test it within its current restrictions and give constructive feedback on gameplay & bugs.

We just need a little patience before this (and the GECK) goes live and we can mod it to our heart's content and enjoy it for years to come (at least I know I will).

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jet4571 wrote: TLDR was that?

It's a beta of a special addition to the game, not simply a 'more content' expansion building on the same mechanics. There's a lot of balancing of new mechanics involved so they need genuine feedback on the vanilla state of survival mode, especially on the gameplay mechanics. Are they too harsh? Are they not harsh enough? Adding mods to make our Survival lives easier or having people cheat with the console would defeat the purpose of this beta.

And of course it has to do with consoles. Probably the vast majority of FO4 gamers play the game unmodded at this time. So yeah, they are very interested in making the vanilla version of Survival mode as best as possible before it goes live.

Can you blame them?

Edited March 30, 2016 by dikr

[Eruadur]

In response to post #36125380. #36126925, #36126990, #36127935 are all replies on the same post.

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jet4571 wrote: Everyone making an excuse for the beta patch disabling mods kindly explain why every single official not beta patch for FO4 has attempted to disable mods by clearing the plugins.txt.

Please explain why all previous Bethesda titles when they released a beta patch did not disable mods but all of a sudden FO4 needs a %100 vanilla no mod state and all those other games didn't.

Please explain why NMM has to uncheck and check the read only flag on the plugins.txt for every single not beta official patch.

I do get the logic of needing a clean environment for a beta test but that does defeat the very purpose of an open beta. Bethesda has the ability to do a vanilla beta test in house. Open betas are to see if something outside can mess up the programing and since this game is to be modded then mods is needed to see if the patch wont be more of a problem than a fix. Take 3DS Max or Photoshop, when they do an open beta they are not forcing you to use the base program, they expect and want plugins for them to be used. Yes both Photoshop and 3DS Max can use mods, they are called plugins but in reality they are mods. Autodesk and Adobe want their software tested in a real world environment because they are making patches and updates for that very environment. If they only made patches for their programs without plugins they will miss a whole lot of problems only they can fix. A video game needing real world environment testing is no different than the very tools used to make that video game. Think before making excuses for Bethesda. Bethesda doesn't need you to make excuses for them because they don't care if mod users complain to begin with.

My theory on why Bethesda is trying to disable mods is... duht dun duh.. Consoles. To make console mods possible and the nice little addition to the main menu I believe they are planning on doing away with the old way of enabling mods and have that all handled via the main menu. and they falsely believe that we will get stuck in the old way and not adapt. That's just my theory and it is the only one I can come up with that makes sense considering Bethesda's history.

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dikr wrote: It's a pain for us PC gamers to play without our beloved mods but I understand that their first priority is finding bugs and optimizing gameplay in the vanilla version. It's only a few months after launch and the game still requires a lot of fine tuning. Let alone a new expansion with new mechanics and other profound changes. Mods would open up a whole new can of worms of possible conflicts and would only serve to complicate and diffuse the feedback at this stage.

The best we can do at this time is seriously test it within its current restrictions and give constructive feedback on gameplay & bugs.

We just need a little patience before this (and the GECK) goes live and we can mod it to our heart's content and enjoy it for years to come (at least I know I will).

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jet4571 wrote: TLDR was that?

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dikr wrote: It's a beta of a special addition to the game, not simply a 'more content' expansion building on the same mechanics. There's a lot of balancing of new mechanics involved so they need genuine feedback on the vanilla state of survival mode, especially on the gameplay mechanics. Are they too harsh? Are they not harsh enough? Adding mods to make our Survival lives easier or having people cheat with the console would defeat the purpose of this beta.

And of course it has to do with consoles. Probably the vast majority of FO4 gamers play the game unmodded at this time. So yeah, they are very interested in making the vanilla version of Survival mode as best as possible before it goes live.

Can you blame them?

MODS
AREN'T
SUPPORTED
YET
.

end of story :)