If the BOS wins, is the NCR in trouble?

[CiderMuffin]

 

 

 

 

 

The NCR has an actual monetary system and draws on an economy based on agriculture and industry. Their technology is not THAT far behind the BOS, look at their elite rangers and Archimedes. They now have the Hoover Dam as well.

where does it say the ncr won?

 

Western BoS survived the Mojave war and managed to get into a position to break radio silence. So either the western BoS left New California to the point the NCR is no longer a threat or the peace treaty between the Mojave-NCR forces ended up being the end of the NCR-BoS war. The only two endings we can theorize as being canon is Independent or NCR since those are the only two where the Mojave BoS aren't exterminated.

 

Independent could mean the entirety of the BoS moved to the Mojave though I doubt that's likely or NCR control the Mojave with a treaty between the BoS.

 

Are you sure it isn't Lost Hills they gained contact with?

 

Lost Hills is literally in the middle of NCR-controlled New California. The NCR is the kind of country that has a system to detect radio transmissions.

 

I am not sure that the BoS will ever rise to power anywhere. I fear that the BoS is its own worst enemy.

 

One concern is that the BoS may begin to doubt and distrust itself. The discovery that Danse is a synth proves to the BoS that their Codex inspired sanction against outside recruitment is valid. Such a validation of the Codex could cause the BoS to close in upon itself. Closing its doors coupled with the distrust of those not "born" BoS could cause the BoS to begin to implode.

 

The abandonment of the Codex by Elder Lyons will also grind on the BoS. His overreaching efforts to aid and assist the people in the Capital Wasteland split the BoS into competing factions. Such a in-house coup could cause the BoS to question the soundness of its leaders and how the are elevated.

 

And the implications of Sarah Lyons being "killed in combat" shortly after her fathers death and the string of "ineffectual" Elders following Lyons are ominous. All that sounds like a struggle for the throne which ended when Maxson was elevated to Elder. That implies that Maxson may have conspired with others to take control of the East Coast BoS and may have twisted the Codex to fulfill his aspirations. Such actions could cause further distrust of its leaders and erode the strength of will in the East Coast BoS.

 

I also do not see Maxson submitting to the West Coast BoS leadership. He is too arrogant and self righteous to admit that anyone but he is fit to lead the BoS. Such an attitude would do more to split the BoS than did Lyons' efforts to assist the inhabitants of the Capitol Wasteland.

 

So I do not hold out much hope that the BoS will rise again. Liberty Prime, the Prydwen, vertibirds, power armor and energy weapons are all tools and tools are not what makes you powerful. Intelligent leadership, strength of will, cohesive units, willing troops and the appropriate use of your tools is what make you powerful. An organization plagued with in-fighting, doubt, distrust, fear and a almost religious reliance on the Codex is hard pressed of meeting these criteria.

 

Finally, the BoS are not the most powerful technophyles on the block. It has been demonstrated several times that the Enclave outstrips the BoS in its technology and in the exploitation of that technology, Should the BoS attempt to rise again, it has a old and power foe that is willing and capable of severely crippling the BoS. There is no doubt in my mind that should the BoS attempt to exercise control in the West , the Enclave would do everything possible to oppose them.

The "Sarah's death was planned!" garbage theory is something the fan community came up with because a lot of people didn't like Maxson nor the fact Maxson does a better job then Lyons. It's a bunch of tinfoil-hat conspiracy for the sake of conspiracy, it's Fallout's Denver Airport.

 

The BoS isn't plagued with in-fighting, the outcast schism was the only one and even then the BoS and outcasts didn't really fight each other and that was because Lyons stopped looking for tech, not because he wanted to help people and recruit people but because he stopped looking for tech. It's also a thing of the past because Maxson fixed the schism and the outcasts rejoined his chapter.

 

"Maxson submitting to west coast rule" isn't shown true but Maxson literally has no choice but to follow the West's orders because that's how the Brotherhood works, you listen to your superiors unless the request goes against the codex, then the leader must step down. We've seen this happen with the Mojave chapter, Maxson doesn't have 100% control over his own BoS chapter and he still respects the codex.

 

The Enclave is dead and lost to the BoS twice. Both at Navarro and in the capital wasteland where the remainder of their forces were destroyed, the Enclave is dead and buried, it has cease to be. Like do you even pay attention to the series' lore?

 

Ok, I will engage.

 

My speculation about Maxson's behavior is based on his description in the Fallout Wiki. In that document, Two of Maxson's characteristics are "Diplomatic" and "Cowardly". It is not difficult to imagine that a cowardly diplomat could maneuver others into doing his dirty work and manipulate events behind the scenes to undermine and marginalize his perceived competition. Furthermore, that same document implies that Sarah's death may not be as presented by placing their description of her death in quotes: "killed in combat".

 

The schism that caused the BoS in the East to split was indeed because Lyons stopped collecting and preserving technology. But what did he do instead? He started helping the people of the DC area. First James and his team and later his son The Lone Wanderer. You say potato, I say tomato. The end result was the same.

 

And according to that same Wiki, Maxson did not immediately bring the Outcasts back into the fold but brokered a peace which allowed the Outcasts to return. The implication here is that Maxson did not want the Brotherhood Outcasts back and/or the Outcasts were not immediately enamored with Maxson and did not want to return. Whatever is the case, concessions had to be made by one of both sides before the Outcasts returned to the arms of the Brotherhood.

 

That same Wiki states that some of the Western BoS hold Maxson in an almost godlike status, simply because of his ancestry. Such flattery would appeal to a coward. Particularly one who perceives himself to be "the Savior of the Commonwealth". It is not difficult to imagine Maxson placing himself above the dictates of a group on the other side of the continent.

 

And I will repeat. The Enclave went from Navarro to the Capital Wasteland. I do not know what they did in between. Did they establish new areas of strength out of sight of the BoS? Did they discover some new and esoteric piece of technology which rivals Liberty Prime? Did they establish a center of power and recruit more people to their cause? Are they holed up in Iron Mountain? Neither you nor I know. I just give the Enclave enough sense to diversify their power and not put all their eggs in a single basket.

 

Such speculation are fun (or at least they are supposed to be). Imagination is allowed to ask "What if...?" and draw scenarios based on those imaginings. You do not have to agree. That is your privilege. You are allowed imaginings of our own.

 

But what you are not allowed to is belittle, insult or criticize. Such behavior is beneath us all.

 

Oh, are we cherry picking now without paying attention to context? The cowardly part was when he was a kid, not when he is an adult. He did this thing called growing up. He doesn't show any "cowardly" traits when he is an adult, hell he joins in on the assault of the Institute, that's not something a coward would do.

 

Now you're just making up crap that isn't there. Maxson bringing peace doesn't mean "he didn't want to" he did it to strengthen the BoS and bring the schism to an end.

 

Maxson's chapter still helps people, they just have an equal focus on gathering tech. BoS vertibirds patrol the trade route, BoS soldiers go into dangerous areas with no tech value just to wipe out ferals, super mutants and raiders and the BoS openly trades with residents of the commonwealth, hell you can get quests which is literally "go to this location that has no tech value and clear it of hostiles". Just because they still have a focus on tech doesn't mean they gave up on helping people.

 

The Enclave are dead and the BoS have always had a hand in it. The only Enclave area we know of is an outpost near Chicago, outpost, not super mega awesome deluxe fortress of GLORIOUS AMERICA but an outpost that is now isolated because the Enclave was absolutely destroyed in the west and the east. The Enclave only had 1000 people on the Oil rig, most died when the Chosen One destroyed it and any survivors left for Navarro which also lost most of it's staff when the Enclave migrated east and then were completely annihilated by, yup that's right, the Brotherhood of Steel. They lost Raven Rock which was their main base, they lost Navarro, they lost the mobile platform where their remnants escaped to. The most the Chicago outpost is is nothing but a small manned outpost designed to be a rely between Navarro and the D.C. Enclave, both of which are destroyed.

 

I'm not pushing speculation, that's all you, buddy.

Edited June 19, 2016 by CiderMuffin

[RattleAndGrind]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The NCR has an actual monetary system and draws on an economy based on agriculture and industry. Their technology is not THAT far behind the BOS, look at their elite rangers and Archimedes. They now have the Hoover Dam as well.

where does it say the ncr won?

 

Western BoS survived the Mojave war and managed to get into a position to break radio silence. So either the western BoS left New California to the point the NCR is no longer a threat or the peace treaty between the Mojave-NCR forces ended up being the end of the NCR-BoS war. The only two endings we can theorize as being canon is Independent or NCR since those are the only two where the Mojave BoS aren't exterminated.

 

Independent could mean the entirety of the BoS moved to the Mojave though I doubt that's likely or NCR control the Mojave with a treaty between the BoS.

 

Are you sure it isn't Lost Hills they gained contact with?

 

Lost Hills is literally in the middle of NCR-controlled New California. The NCR is the kind of country that has a system to detect radio transmissions.

 

I am not sure that the BoS will ever rise to power anywhere. I fear that the BoS is its own worst enemy.

 

One concern is that the BoS may begin to doubt and distrust itself. The discovery that Danse is a synth proves to the BoS that their Codex inspired sanction against outside recruitment is valid. Such a validation of the Codex could cause the BoS to close in upon itself. Closing its doors coupled with the distrust of those not "born" BoS could cause the BoS to begin to implode.

 

The abandonment of the Codex by Elder Lyons will also grind on the BoS. His overreaching efforts to aid and assist the people in the Capital Wasteland split the BoS into competing factions. Such a in-house coup could cause the BoS to question the soundness of its leaders and how the are elevated.

 

And the implications of Sarah Lyons being "killed in combat" shortly after her fathers death and the string of "ineffectual" Elders following Lyons are ominous. All that sounds like a struggle for the throne which ended when Maxson was elevated to Elder. That implies that Maxson may have conspired with others to take control of the East Coast BoS and may have twisted the Codex to fulfill his aspirations. Such actions could cause further distrust of its leaders and erode the strength of will in the East Coast BoS.

 

I also do not see Maxson submitting to the West Coast BoS leadership. He is too arrogant and self righteous to admit that anyone but he is fit to lead the BoS. Such an attitude would do more to split the BoS than did Lyons' efforts to assist the inhabitants of the Capitol Wasteland.

 

So I do not hold out much hope that the BoS will rise again. Liberty Prime, the Prydwen, vertibirds, power armor and energy weapons are all tools and tools are not what makes you powerful. Intelligent leadership, strength of will, cohesive units, willing troops and the appropriate use of your tools is what make you powerful. An organization plagued with in-fighting, doubt, distrust, fear and a almost religious reliance on the Codex is hard pressed of meeting these criteria.

 

Finally, the BoS are not the most powerful technophyles on the block. It has been demonstrated several times that the Enclave outstrips the BoS in its technology and in the exploitation of that technology, Should the BoS attempt to rise again, it has a old and power foe that is willing and capable of severely crippling the BoS. There is no doubt in my mind that should the BoS attempt to exercise control in the West , the Enclave would do everything possible to oppose them.

The "Sarah's death was planned!" garbage theory is something the fan community came up with because a lot of people didn't like Maxson nor the fact Maxson does a better job then Lyons. It's a bunch of tinfoil-hat conspiracy for the sake of conspiracy, it's Fallout's Denver Airport.

 

The BoS isn't plagued with in-fighting, the outcast schism was the only one and even then the BoS and outcasts didn't really fight each other and that was because Lyons stopped looking for tech, not because he wanted to help people and recruit people but because he stopped looking for tech. It's also a thing of the past because Maxson fixed the schism and the outcasts rejoined his chapter.

 

"Maxson submitting to west coast rule" isn't shown true but Maxson literally has no choice but to follow the West's orders because that's how the Brotherhood works, you listen to your superiors unless the request goes against the codex, then the leader must step down. We've seen this happen with the Mojave chapter, Maxson doesn't have 100% control over his own BoS chapter and he still respects the codex.

 

The Enclave is dead and lost to the BoS twice. Both at Navarro and in the capital wasteland where the remainder of their forces were destroyed, the Enclave is dead and buried, it has cease to be. Like do you even pay attention to the series' lore?

 

Ok, I will engage.

 

My speculation about Maxson's behavior is based on his description in the Fallout Wiki. In that document, Two of Maxson's characteristics are "Diplomatic" and "Cowardly". It is not difficult to imagine that a cowardly diplomat could maneuver others into doing his dirty work and manipulate events behind the scenes to undermine and marginalize his perceived competition. Furthermore, that same document implies that Sarah's death may not be as presented by placing their description of her death in quotes: "killed in combat".

 

The schism that caused the BoS in the East to split was indeed because Lyons stopped collecting and preserving technology. But what did he do instead? He started helping the people of the DC area. First James and his team and later his son The Lone Wanderer. You say potato, I say tomato. The end result was the same.

 

And according to that same Wiki, Maxson did not immediately bring the Outcasts back into the fold but brokered a peace which allowed the Outcasts to return. The implication here is that Maxson did not want the Brotherhood Outcasts back and/or the Outcasts were not immediately enamored with Maxson and did not want to return. Whatever is the case, concessions had to be made by one of both sides before the Outcasts returned to the arms of the Brotherhood.

 

That same Wiki states that some of the Western BoS hold Maxson in an almost godlike status, simply because of his ancestry. Such flattery would appeal to a coward. Particularly one who perceives himself to be "the Savior of the Commonwealth". It is not difficult to imagine Maxson placing himself above the dictates of a group on the other side of the continent.

 

And I will repeat. The Enclave went from Navarro to the Capital Wasteland. I do not know what they did in between. Did they establish new areas of strength out of sight of the BoS? Did they discover some new and esoteric piece of technology which rivals Liberty Prime? Did they establish a center of power and recruit more people to their cause? Are they holed up in Iron Mountain? Neither you nor I know. I just give the Enclave enough sense to diversify their power and not put all their eggs in a single basket.

 

Such speculation are fun (or at least they are supposed to be). Imagination is allowed to ask "What if...?" and draw scenarios based on those imaginings. You do not have to agree. That is your privilege. You are allowed imaginings of our own.

 

But what you are not allowed to is belittle, insult or criticize. Such behavior is beneath us all.

 

Oh, are we cherry picking now without paying attention to context? The cowardly part was when he was a kid, not when he is an adult. He did this thing called growing up. He doesn't show any "cowardly" traits when he is an adult, hell he joins in on the assault of the Institute, that's not something a coward would do.

 

Now you're just making up crap that isn't there. Maxson bringing peace doesn't mean "he didn't want to" he did it to strengthen the BoS and bring the schism to an end.

 

Maxson's chapter still helps people, they just have an equal focus on gathering tech. BoS vertibirds patrol the trade route, BoS soldiers go into dangerous areas with no tech value just to wipe out ferals, super mutants and raiders and the BoS openly trades with residents of the commonwealth, hell you can get quests which is literally "go to this location that has no tech value and clear it of hostiles". Just because they still have a focus on tech doesn't mean they gave up on helping people.

 

The Enclave are dead and the BoS have always had a hand in it. The only Enclave area we know of is an outpost near Chicago, outpost, not super mega awesome deluxe fortress of GLORIOUS AMERICA but an outpost that is now isolated because the Enclave was absolutely destroyed in the west and the east. The Enclave only had 1000 people on the Oil rig, most died when the Chosen One destroyed it and any survivors left for Navarro which also lost most of it's staff when the Enclave migrated east and then were completely annihilated by, yup that's right, the Brotherhood of Steel. They lost Raven Rock which was their main base, they lost Navarro, they lost the mobile platform where their remnants escaped to. The most the Chicago outpost is is nothing but a small manned outpost designed to be a rely between Navarro and the D.C. Enclave, both of which are destroyed.

 

I'm not pushing speculation, that's all you, buddy.

 

I will address your last sentence only. This entire thread started with speculation on would happen to the NCR if the BoS won in the East. Everything that followed was based on speculation, including my own. And with that, I will disengage. I have obviously engaged with a zealot and it is a waste of my time to attempt intelligent discourse with a closed mind.

Edited June 19, 2016 by RattleAndGrind

[midtek]

I don't think modern templars will be able to take down a statewide army in a full scale war. Even if they do so, they don't have stationary force to take control of occupying territory. A matter of time they will meet local resistance and guerilla warfare; the worst case is another Ceaser arrives to hijack just after the war. It will crumble. A giant robot plus mini nukes won't fix this.

But most of all, they are zealots. Codex doesn't tell them to wipe out whole nation by using advanced technology they have warned and restrained. It will develop into a heresy matter. The worst case, intestine war starts by ideologists.

[CiderMuffin]

Most likely case is either the NCR falls or the wars goes nowhere until a ceasefire is called and diplomatic terms are negotiated.

[midtek]

The chance is likely the war goes nowhere. As several mentioned, BoS might have military power in full strength may deal heavy damage on NCR troops in major battles, but won't be able to cut off the vast pool of resources lie in. They are not in the position of winning at protracted war. NCR won't be simply killed off by military collisions and BoS is too thin to occupy the areas. At some point, they will have to nuke down causing mass casualties on civil side to win the war; which is against their own doctrine. Before that, the treaty might come.

[cyberpunker1088]

The reason the NCR wins easily is as I said, industry and economy. The BoS does have a technological edge, but not by much. Especially since the NCR has Archimedes, Hoover Dam, and the Elite Rangers. The NCR likely has access to full power armor as well, because even raiders can use power armor now.

 

So basically the BoS will just have a slight technological edge. Historically, industry and economic advantaged nation always win even when their enemy has a slight edge on technology. Nazi Germany had more advanced rifles, tanks, aircraft, and artillery. But the US industrial and economic mobilization negated Germany's tech advantage.

 

BoS isn't even comparable with the NCR in industry and economics. The BoS at best taxes local villages and does limited industrial production. They seem to prefer a hands on manufacturing approach. The NCR is your traditional mass production, economies of scale superpower. The BoS may win a few battles in the beginning, but they will lose as time goes on and they run out of resources.

 

The only thing the BoS can do is to use their technological edge to DETER the NCR. They can hope to deter the NCR from attacking them, but cannot hope to win a 1 v 1 war against the NCR.

 

If the Minutemen can defeat the Eastern BoS. Trust me, the NCR will wipe the floor with the BoS.

Edited June 20, 2016 by cyberpunker1088

[midtek]

Lone Wanderer kick every single faction by his boots in game so I try not to count on it. Commonwealth cowbays should not be able to match a Brotherhood branch in stories imo.

NCR military is mostly consisted of regualar troops armed with service rifle, tan uniform and helmets. Their strength is in numbers. To maintain all the numbers and lines, a big sinkhole that their military efficacy go through many holes when warfare come out. Good at enforcing marshal law and sweeping minor threats tho.

I expect there will be NCR's chain retreat to major fortresses at the beginning and bombardments happen from each side. BoS clearly won't win by the attrition. But at the same time they are not regional base. NCR has no clear target to root out the organization. If BoS goes desperate and start using advanced technology they collected aka nuke down NCR territories, it will be a pile of dust even after win the war. No one benefits from it. I think just diversionary conflict will happen, that's all; no full scale war.

[cyberpunker1088]

 

Lone Wanderer kick every single faction by his boots in game so I try not to count on it. Commonwealth cowbays should not be able to match a Brotherhood branch in stories imo.

 

 

Except they did and it's canon that the Minutemen CAN take out the Eastern BoS. So the NCR should have no problem. The issue with nukes is that I'm pretty sure the NCR has its own stockpile too.

[midtek]

Our protagonist can conquer whole Commonwealth with a baseball bat in the game because that's how the game is designed for epic game experience. I think it will take a long time for Commonwealth to stand as a reliable force if writers have will to do.

And yes, NCR has fine strategic armaments. But unlike NCR stands as a massive target, BoS is not. NCR might be going to nuke down inside their border to eliminate BoS intruders, and there is no strict code to prohibit it unlike BoS. That will only qualify the Jihad for BoS side. They will treat NCR as the ultimate threat replaying pre-war menace. Whole BoS organizations across NA ruins will start cooperating to develop the way.

BoS is not just power armor guys with fancy tools. It is technological organization. If they start using collected assets into offensive way instead of preserving, I am afraid s*** things will happen. If not by now, some near future. Cultists can be damn persistent. :wink:

[CiderMuffin]

The reason the NCR wins easily is as I said, industry and economy. The BoS does have a technological edge, but not by much. Especially since the NCR has Archimedes, Hoover Dam, and the Elite Rangers. The NCR likely has access to full power armor as well, because even raiders can use power armor now.

 

So basically the BoS will just have a slight technological edge. Historically, industry and economic advantaged nation always win even when their enemy has a slight edge on technology. Nazi Germany had more advanced rifles, tanks, aircraft, and artillery. But the US industrial and economic mobilization negated Germany's tech advantage.

 

BoS isn't even comparable with the NCR in industry and economics. The BoS at best taxes local villages and does limited industrial production. They seem to prefer a hands on manufacturing approach. The NCR is your traditional mass production, economies of scale superpower. The BoS may win a few battles in the beginning, but they will lose as time goes on and they run out of resources.

 

The only thing the BoS can do is to use their technological edge to DETER the NCR. They can hope to deter the NCR from attacking them, but cannot hope to win a 1 v 1 war against the NCR.

 

If the Minutemen can defeat the Eastern BoS. Trust me, the NCR will wipe the floor with the BoS.

The NCR doesn't even know Archimedes exists is the thing. Even discovering the system doesn't mean they can launch it anywhere but Helios One. They'd need the gun which they don't even know exists as it's not on any of the terminals iirc.

 

It's also worth noting the Minutemen can only defeat the BoS by launching a mortar strike without them knowing, it's also worth noting they aren't defeating the Eastern BoS but a army of them that for all we know could be less then half of their manpower as we don't know what D.C. is like right now. Minutemen also need the help of the Sole Survivor to do it.

 

Like, there is so much about D.C. we don't know about other then the BoS control it and one BoS member calls it a country in a eulogy sent to a dead soldier's mother. For all we know they could be on their way of building industry and an economy in D.C. which would make sense as with the new recruitment system they would need to mass-produce weapons, uniforms and armor as well as replacement parts for power armor.

Edited June 22, 2016 by CiderMuffin