UK in/out EU?

[sunshinenbrick]

 

 

 

@sunshinenbrick Look at the first world countries outside of the EU, they manage just fine so why wouldn't we? have a little faith in your fellow countrymen.

 

 

Most of those countries have shown a keen interest in us stying in the EU though, because they use us as a 'stop-gap' and a way into many EU markets that are notouriously protectionist.

 

We also have to deal with the fact that we are already in the EU, and they are not.

 

I have a lot of faith in my 'fellow countrymen'. Some of them, even ones in my own family, scare me a lot with their very narrow and hypocritical views though. For example a person I know who wants to vote 'out' but then wants to use a bill of European human rights to stop some massive house being built right on her doorstep... very confusing.

 

But its not so much individuals that I would say I have seeds of doubt about anyway. It is the way they are manipulated to believe something through the media and politcal football so as to suit a certain narrative. We are told so many things by politicians and then it all turns out to be baloney and we end up fronting the bill. Then fall for the bait again... and again.

 

I know we could have the exact same arguements both ways but the benefits of being more closely connected to our neighbours (both within our own country and beyond) is that we will be less isolated and thus subject to having the wool pulled over our eyes. It's no secret within the EU that things are not as they should be and I do believe in power of the people, both my fellow countrymen and 'fellow europeans'. The world is not the same one it was 50 or so years ago and the stage is much bigger from BRICS, to TTIP, TISA, CETA and other global entities that are all to eager to eat us all alive.

 

I fear that the fragmentation of Europe is exactly what a few of these multi-lateral organisations would love.

 

 

They want us in the EU because it benefits them, not us. The remain camp is made up of career politicians and big business, none of them care about this country, look who's fronting it, Stewart Rose, the guy who said British workers should work like the Chinese and said of the increase in wages for the low paid that would follow Brexit "That’s not necessarily a good thing", of course it isn't for him and his mates, they much prefer to pay next to nothing and let the taxpayer pay the rest in the form of in work benefits.

 

The EU isn't run for the benefit of the people, it's run for big business, the mountains of red tape keep the smaller businesses down and work in favour of the large multinationals. Look at what was done to Greece, the was purely to prop up French and German banks, they'd happily sell us down the river too, you only need to look at the way they're embracing TTIP to see that. There is a reason why the RMT, Respect and even the Communist Party are joining Tory, UKIP and Labour people in backing an out vote.

 

 

You make good points and if they are true then maybe I am looking at this all wrong. However there is so much disinformation, spin and false flags now that unless we are meant to know, I think we are all supposed to be confused...

 

In some ways if feels like we are all doomed either way because we are all at bottom of the pile. Where we live and whatever is becoming increasingly irrelvant, we are now nothing but a resource unless you are lucky enough to be among those who own everything already.

[ginnyfizz]

My late father, God rest his soul, was an accountant and sadly died three years ago, but he would have been voting Brexit because as he used to say

"How we can continue to be part of an institution that is so rotten that their accounts haven't been signed off by the auditors in nigh on twenty years is beyond me. Why nobody is in the dock over this is beyond me!"

Amen to that, Pops. Unaccountable, the only country to solemnly obey the rules while the others laugh at us is...well, the UK.

[sunshinenbrick]

It was Thatcher and Reagan who popularised the very neo-liberal financial mess we all find ourselves in today though...

[JimboUK]

It was Thatcher and Reagan who popularised the very neo-liberal financial mess we all find ourselves in today though...

 

It was Thatcher who saved this country from third world status, I was a small child at the time but I still remember the late 70s, it's not something anyone alive at the time could forget. The mess we're in today was brought about the Labour Party, it's deregulation of the banks and out of control spending, all at a time when the EU was burying our companies under a mountain of red tape and idiotic regulations.

 

[sunshinenbrick]

I'm not saying there weren't changes that had to happen but make no mistake that the systems put in place were to make money out of nothing so as to let the rich to keep getting richer. This eventually lead to the 2008 crisis (which is not over), the collapse of Greece (the UK putting even more voodoo economic mechanisms in place) and it is why we have austerity now. A lot of regulation and bureaucracy has been written and voted for by the UK, so also have ourselves to blame. Both sides have played a role in the currency war that has ended so badly and we should show some sense of responsibility rather than pointing fingers and running.

Yes 'Labour' have a lot to answer for too, however these problems go across party lines. The other parties still voted on bogus policies that decieve people for political and ideological gains.

None of this will change by simply leaving the EU. It's not like things will be any easier without the massive economy of Europe to fund our lavish Western lifestyles. Leaving may very well be great for tycoons and international business but it will not be so kind on the poor (that's most us). We will still have to deal with austerity, of an even more acute degree. A lot of the legislation and investment from being a member will be very sorely missed when it's gone and I don't think people fully realise that. 'You don't know what you have till you don't have it anymore'.

I would like more honesty from these campaigns instead of simply saying 'if you choose us things will be better'. Anything too good to be true usually is...

[ginnyfizz]

Hmm...CETA and TTIP, enthusiastically pushed by the EU, will be good for the UK poor how exactly? I am disabled and a trade unionist and by gum the idea of multinationals running the NHS frightens me. "No you can't have your anti TNF drugs, you cost too much you crippled old bat ". Leaving means we kick CETA and TTIP into touch along with the EU is the general idea.

[sunshinenbrick]

Hmm...CETA and TTIP, enthusiastically pushed by the EU, will be good for the UK poor how exactly? I am disabled and a trade unionist and by gum the idea of multinationals running the NHS frightens me. "No you can't have your anti TNF drugs, you cost too much you crippled old bat ". Leaving means we kick CETA and TTIP into touch along with the EU is the general idea.

 

Leaving the EU would not shield us from TTIP, TISA or CETA. If you don't believe me, check it out from the 'horses mouth'.

[JimboUK]

 

None of this will change by simply leaving the EU. It's not like things will be any easier without the massive economy of Europe to fund our lavish Western lifestyles.

 

The EU is not going to vanish if we leave, we will still trade with them, the only difference is we'll be free to trade with the rest of the world, to enter into agreements with economies that are actually growing, we won't be shackled to the twitching corpse that is the EU.

 

 

Hmm...CETA and TTIP, enthusiastically pushed by the EU, will be good for the UK poor how exactly? I am disabled and a trade unionist and by gum the idea of multinationals running the NHS frightens me. "No you can't have your anti TNF drugs, you cost too much you crippled old bat ". Leaving means we kick CETA and TTIP into touch along with the EU is the general idea.

 

Leaving the EU would not shield us from TTIP, TISA or CETA. If you don't believe me, check it out from the 'horses mouth'.

 

 

I'm not sure how Boris Johnson qualifies as the horses mouth but TTIP would struggle to get through any parliament because there is plenty of opposition to it on the right too, the suggestion that the opposition is only on the left is silly, it's been opposed by UKIP since day one and is opposed by right wing parties across the EU and many Tory MPs at home, it's certainly not just a bunch of "Left-wing misery-guts anti-globalisation campaigners".

[sunshinenbrick]

 

None of this will change by simply leaving the EU. It's not like things will be any easier without the massive economy of Europe to fund our lavish Western lifestyles.

The EU is not going to vanish if we leave, we will still trade with them, the only difference is we'll be free to trade with the rest of the world, to enter into agreements with economies that are actually growing, we won't be shackled to the twitching corpse that is the EU.

 

 

Hmm...CETA and TTIP, enthusiastically pushed by the EU, will be good for the UK poor how exactly? I am disabled and a trade unionist and by gum the idea of multinationals running the NHS frightens me. "No you can't have your anti TNF drugs, you cost too much you crippled old bat ". Leaving means we kick CETA and TTIP into touch along with the EU is the general idea.

Leaving the EU would not shield us from TTIP, TISA or CETA. If you don't believe me, check it out from the 'horses mouth'.

I'm not sure how Boris Johnson qualifies as the horses mouth but TTIP would struggle to get through any parliament because there is plenty of opposition to it on the right too, the suggestion that the opposition is only on the left is silly, it's been opposed by UKIP since day one and is opposed by right wing parties across the EU and many Tory MPs at home, it's certainly not just a bunch of "Left-wing misery-guts anti-globalisation campaigners".

The left and right has little to do with anything, so I very much agree with you on that.

 

Boris has a lot of clout, even if I don't agree with him. He is very international and is perhaps even blinded by his own ambition. With fingers in many pies, he is a major contender for Prime Minister and is actually very pro EU (or is it just world domination?) despite what he says on camera.

 

London and big business are in favour of TTIP as it is not a one way deal. It's bad news for small businesses but why should they care about that, it's small potatoes. As much as the 'in' voters need to be made aware of what the deal is... So should the 'out' campaign. Simply saying it will be better is not a convincing argument when there is so much contradiction and people pulling in different directions. Even the two out campaigns can't agree on what they are doing...

 

Being part of a single market is a huge advantage when dealing with trade as it gives you more say. Problem is that it only really works when people work together rather than fighting each other. But then the advantage of encouraging this is it distracts people while you are trying heist the money for yourself... Do we need anymore proof that that is what has been going on?

[JimboUK]

I'm happy that Johnson joined the out camp, he is very influential but I'm under no illusions as to why he joined, he's got his eye on Camerons job, it's why he came back to parliament in the first place, he expected to take over when Cameron lost to Miliband, it all went a bit wrong when Cameron won.

 

As for two out campaigns I think that's a plus, the official one can do its thing and the other one can carry on with none of the spending limits imposed on the official one. The electoral commission's choice when it came to who would be the official leave group was an odd one, the grassroots one had cross party support including Tories, Labour, UKIP, Respect and Communist Party, even the RMT had jumped on board yet it chose the establishment group which has far narrower support. It was also alarming to see how many of those people on the panel that made that choice had links to the EU, the EU has spread through our institutions like a cancer, it's going to be painful to remove but it has to be done before it kills the patient.