Mod Picker: The Fearsome Juggernaut

[EggOver1979]

The Mod Picker Team has produced a document as an official response to the concerns that Mod Authors have brought up.

 

Mod Picker - A Response to Community Concerns

 

I gotta say, you're showing remarkable restraint and professionalism here by not making that link just a giant picture of a middle finger. I am disappointed that you're even offering an opt-out system, and I hope it's not a silent one, like when scientology DMCA'd Google.

 

This discussion is highlighting a lot of the attitudes I find to be extremely distasteful in and for this community, and those attitudes are why I don't contribute more to discussions.

 

 

 

 

To me mod picker seems like the obvious next step in the development of a true modding community. Nexus provides a good platform for authors to talk to users and to some extent to get feedback, but there isn't really a centralized place for users to talk to each other. Frankly I don't see why any opt-out option is necessary or appropriate. It's just people talking to people about mods. The admins shouldn't feel responsible to stop people from talking about certain mods because the author doesn't like being talked about. If you don't like being talked about, you really shouldn't participate in a community at all, because if you are going to be a presence then you are going to get talked about and there's nothing anybody can do about it.

Why can't you talk about mods here?

 

What an odd question. We can and we do. (And we are.)

 

So why do you feel this isn't a "centralized place" where users can talk to each other about mods? The mods are here, the user's are here and the mod author's are here.

 

For me, I'll tell you why: Because somebody always gets their feelings hurt by technical discussions or goes off on a martyr "I DONT GET PAID TO MAKE THESE MODS ;_; " rant here. That's why. That's why I generally don't hang out in the forums here. Because the unspoken issue here is that ModPicker represents a forum where mod authors don't have all the power. That's the reason behind a lot of the rage here seems to stem from, and it's the reason that, as a mod author, I'm looking forward to ModPicker. In healthy discussions, one side doesn't have the power to arbitrarily shut down all criticism.

Edited April 25, 2016 by EggOver1979

[mlee3141]

 

Now, for a question of my own. Which part of 1984 did you find most appealing? I'd just like to know who I'm debating with.

probably the part where they go antique shopping. I think that it serves as a quaint contrast to the (artificial) bleakness of the rest of the story.

 

Kind of like this conversation in the bleakness of the internet <3

 

But your reference to 1984 brings up a good point. A major trope in the book was it's establishment of government oversight bringing stability, safety, and a general increase in the quality of life to the citizens of the country. They spent their entire lives in fear of Eastasia. They spent their lives cowering from the Eastasian menace. But their government protected them. Their government provided that stability, that protection, in a way that individuals simply wouldn't have been able to.

 

In a similar way, Mod Picker is looking to do the same thing. Without Mod Picker, we have no one acting to keep us informed of important changes in mods and the modding community in a collected and concise form (think of how different the society in 1984 would be if their government didn't keep them informed of the smallest changes. For example: the chocolate rations scene). Without that kind of information distribution being handled by a large group above the common people, there is no good way that people could be easily informed. That kind of organization allows for easy, concise, and efficient distribution of information from a central authority to those in need of it.

 

Great... the discussion has turned into a bookclub...

<3

 

 

Wow. I'm shocked. You would be blind to all of the injustices/ atrocities committed by the government/ Mod Picker, in the interest of protection from Eastasia/ Eurasia (mod authors, who, just like the two superpowers in the book, aren't really that bad), when the entire theme of the book was about freedom from oppressive, overbearing scrutiny, and breaking the web of lies and illusions perpetuated by those who claim to be in power/ experts (the Party/ Mod Picker Users).

 

Seriously. Mod authors are fundamentally no different than mod users; in fact, the two roles are so similar that they might as well be indistinguishable. After all, we're all here to indulge in a hobby, be it modding games or making mods. Sometimes, we even do both, at the same time!

 

Thus, when Mod Picker defies the rights of MAs, they're hurting the entire community as a whole, and not just the MAs, or the users. We're all in this together.

Edited April 25, 2016 by mlee3141

[EggOver1979]

Seriously. Mod authors are fundamentally no different than mod users; in fact, the two roles are so similar that they might as well be indistinguishable. After all, we're all here to indulge in a hobby, be it modding games or making mods. Sometimes, we even do both, at the same time!

 

Thus, when Mod Picker defies the rights of MAs, they're hurting the entire community as a whole, and not just the MAs, or the users. We're all in this together.

 

"Deciding what other people can say about my creation" is a "right" afforded to no other type of creator, hobbyist or professional, paid or unpaid.

 

Additionally, "Well, it's okay if they criticize my creations as long as it's not in a centralized location where others can read it easily" isn't a real great argument either.

 

You come so very close to getting it - there is no difference between Authors and Users - and then veer off because the logical conclusion to that - there is no "right" to keep people from talking about your creations - undermines the very point you want to make.

 

It seems to me that what you're actually saying in that last sentence is, "When Mod Picker hurts the feelings of Mod Authors, they're hurting the community as a whole" and in the words of the late, unlamented Antonin Scalia, that's pure applesauce.

[CowGuru]

Truly, Orwell was warning us about the dangers of allowing mod reviews all along.

 

This is why I don't talk to other modders. Get a grip.

[lofgren]

 

 

 

To me mod picker seems like the obvious next step in the development of a true modding community. Nexus provides a good platform for authors to talk to users and to some extent to get feedback, but there isn't really a centralized place for users to talk to each other. Frankly I don't see why any opt-out option is necessary or appropriate. It's just people talking to people about mods. The admins shouldn't feel responsible to stop people from talking about certain mods because the author doesn't like being talked about. If you don't like being talked about, you really shouldn't participate in a community at all, because if you are going to be a presence then you are going to get talked about and there's nothing anybody can do about it.

Why can't you talk about mods here?

 

 

What an odd question. We can and we do. (And we are.)

 

So why do you feel this isn't a "centralized place" where users can talk to each other about mods? The mods are here, the user's are here and the mod author's are here.

 

 

Regardless of my feelings, it clearly isn't a centralized place, as has already been discussed in this thread.

 

This forum is a general-purpose forum with only limited organization. Mod Picker is a forum tailored to the discussion of specific mods by users of those mods.

 

Troubleshooting a load order right now typically means poring through pages and pages of random comments on the mod page, in mod discussion topic, and then on Google so you can check the Bethesda and Reddit fora as well. Much of that information is unreliable at best and there is no quality control whatsoever. I look forward to seeing that I have a problem with a mod and going straight to Modpicker, finding that another user has encountered the problem and provided a fix, or figured out the incompatibility, or just noted what they have tried so far before they gave up. I'm glad that information is going to be rated based on reliability because right now there is absolutely no control for reliability on what people say about your mod on the Internet.

 

I really don't understand the objections of mod authors. Either there are serious objections that have not yet been brought up in this thread, or the primary concern is that the precise percentage of users with good reputations who have to vote on a comment about a mod in order for the comment to be regarded as "factual" is too low to prevent inaccurate comments from temporarily becoming regarded as fact until a moderator has a chance to go and edit the page manually. If I were in a business meeting discussing a new product, and that was raised as an objection, I would declare the meeting over and the product approved because if that's really the biggest point we have to argue about then the product must be pure gold.

[mlee3141]

 

 

 

 

To me mod picker seems like the obvious next step in the development of a true modding community. Nexus provides a good platform for authors to talk to users and to some extent to get feedback, but there isn't really a centralized place for users to talk to each other. Frankly I don't see why any opt-out option is necessary or appropriate. It's just people talking to people about mods. The admins shouldn't feel responsible to stop people from talking about certain mods because the author doesn't like being talked about. If you don't like being talked about, you really shouldn't participate in a community at all, because if you are going to be a presence then you are going to get talked about and there's nothing anybody can do about it.

Why can't you talk about mods here?

 

 

What an odd question. We can and we do. (And we are.)

 

So why do you feel this isn't a "centralized place" where users can talk to each other about mods? The mods are here, the user's are here and the mod author's are here.

 

 

Regardless of my feelings, it clearly isn't a centralized place, as has already been discussed in this thread.

 

This forum is a general-purpose forum with only limited organization. Mod Picker is a forum tailored to the discussion of specific mods by users of those mods.

 

Troubleshooting a load order right now typically means poring through pages and pages of random comments on the mod page, in mod discussion topic, and then on Google so you can check the Bethesda and Reddit fora as well. Much of that information is unreliable at best and there is no quality control whatsoever. I look forward to seeing that I have a problem with a mod and going straight to Modpicker, finding that another user has encountered the problem and provided a fix, or figured out the incompatibility, or just noted what they have tried so far before they gave up. I'm glad that information is going to be rated based on reliability because right now there is absolutely no control for reliability on what people say about your mod on the Internet.

 

I really don't understand the objections of mod authors. Either there are serious objections that have not yet been brought up in this thread, or the primary concern is that the precise percentage of users with good reputations who have to vote on a comment about a mod in order for the comment to be regarded as "factual" is too low to prevent inaccurate comments from temporarily becoming regarded as fact until a moderator has a chance to go and edit the page manually. If I were in a business meeting discussing a new product, and that was raised as an objection, I would declare the meeting over and the product approved because if that's really the biggest point we have to argue about then the product must be pure gold.

 

 

This is getting out of hand. You forget the most important part of "troubleshooting" and "users helping users": The actual mod page description/ comments section of the mod in question! That should be where users, users and authors interact and help each other out, not a third-party site that is entirely redundant (indeed, it may even complicate things for authors and users alike), and provides no actual benefit to either party.

[lofgren]

 

 

This is getting out of hand. You forget the most important part of "troubleshooting" and "users helping users": The actual mod page description/ comments section of the mod in question! That should be where users, users and authors interact and help each other out, not a third-party site that is entirely redundant (indeed, it may even complicate things for authors and users alike), and provides no actual benefit to either party.

 

 

That's a beautiful vision, but the simple fact is that the actual mod page description and comments are terrible resources. IF the Nexus implemented some of the features that Mod Picker is planning, then those pages might actually become useful. Unless they are planning to do so, Mod Picker is filling an obvious gap and I suspect it will be very successful for that reason.

 

I have yet to see a serious objection to Mod Picker. I'm not about to wade through the many pages of commentary in the mod authors forum and there have been repeated suggestions to move the discussion out into the open anyway. Would somebody be willing to bullet-point the objections of mod authors? All of the responses to "concerns" in the Mod Picker response document are responses to spurious, irrelevant, or frankly silly concerns.

Edited April 25, 2016 by lofgren

[mlee3141]

 

That's a beautiful vision, but the simple fact is that the actual mod page description and comments are terrible resources. IF the Nexus implemented some of the features that Mod Picker is planning, then those pages might actually become useful. Unless they are planning to do so, Mod Picker is filling an obvious gap and I suspect it will be very successful for that reason.

 

Wow. I take offense to that, when I provide detailed, interesting and very relevant/ up-to-date information on all of my mod pages, and help my users with every concern/ question they have to the best of my ability. I also take feedback/ suggestions very well, and indeed, have implemented over half of what my users suggest. That is a beautiful vision, and one that is solid and corporeal even as we speak. Mod Picker would destroy it all in the storm to come.

Edited April 25, 2016 by mlee3141

[sunshinenbrick]

I think people on the user side may not be aware of how the 'mod picker' was sold to authors.

 

It was practically said that there would be a sort of 'mod builder', or PCPartPicker or something, that didn't specify what input would be required from the 'user' other than selecting what they want. In all purpose it sound like a plug'n'play mod platform, where the elimination of popular mods would be determined by how much authors were willing to slave away and provide for 'user' needs/wants.

 

Being a 'user' myself (among lecturer, designer, boyfriend, son etc...), turned author, I would have loved an initiative to create a 'super-database', if you will, of compiled wikis, tutorials, official bug releases etc... etc... and have been one of the people to suggest this idea in recent discussions. But that is NOT what the initial press release (to Nexus modders) was pitching. Not at all.

 

I agree that this is the very place where 'users' can help other 'users' by asking them questions and sharing wikis, links, and videos that show you how to do something. There is as someone else said a huge amount of this stuff out there if you take the time to look. How else do people think the 'authors' of today got there themselves? There is no other way than to learn things the way everybody else does. To make it any 'easier' is to actually do a disservice and to take 'user's for chumps.

 

Now this DOES bring into question as to why 'users' are feeling that they cannot get this information or that it is wrong. Well in some respects I partly blame the automation of the process already. People are not learning manual mod building/installing and the more fundamental practices are being eroded. Working in schools I see the same thing and technology in general has this effect. Since I started having a spell checker my spelling has deteriorated BUT I take the time to make the correction and computers actually empower these skills. Yet, things are getting so bad in the pursuit of profit that people are getting into the habit of not doing this and relying too much on technology.

 

The other reason, and perhaps 'authors' have to take some awareness of this, and that is paid mods. The tidal wave around this had been brewing pretty much from the release of Skyrim. People were getting eager for recognition for their work after Beth kept there cards forever close to their chest. Then they clustered everyone and caused absolute chaos by not communicating and discussing through respectful and open debate. Instead they went through a third party and then took a massive dump on their avid fan base.

 

The point I am making here is that there are many very valid reasons why things have become tenuous and people's motives have been questioned. I can see both sides of this but essentially we must try to see our similarities as well as our differences, as at the end of the day we mostly all want the same thing... more mods, more people making mods and the opportunity to increase our skills and portfolio. Oh, and to hopefully scratch some sort of living when Zenimax finally get there $hit together :rolleyes:

 

Personally however, I am not convinced paid mods (or mod picker) will necessarily solve any of the issues we have.

[lofgren]

 

 

That's a beautiful vision, but the simple fact is that the actual mod page description and comments are terrible resources. IF the Nexus implemented some of the features that Mod Picker is planning, then those pages might actually become useful. Unless they are planning to do so, Mod Picker is filling an obvious gap and I suspect it will be very successful for that reason.

 

Wow. I take offense to that, when I provide detailed, interesting and very relevant/ up-to-date information on all of my mod pages, and help my users with every concern/ question they have to the best of my ability. I also take feedback/ suggestions very well, and indeed, have implemented over half of what my users suggest. That is a beautiful vision, and one that is solid and corporeal even as we speak. Mod Picker would destroy it all in the storm to come.

 

 

There is no reason to take offense. It has nothing to do with you personally. It's due to the structure and design of the site. Facilitating user-to-user discussion is simply not a focus of the Nexus. Nexus' focus is connecting authors to users. That's great. We need that place. But there is ample room for Mod Picker to contribute to the community as well.