HeyYou Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) Reveal hidden contents On 7/18/2011 at 6:42 AM, marharth said: On 7/18/2011 at 2:36 AM, HeyYou said: On 7/18/2011 at 12:16 AM, marharth said: On 7/17/2011 at 5:21 PM, HeyYou said: On 7/17/2011 at 11:38 AM, Sync182 said: On 7/16/2011 at 10:26 PM, LadyMilla said: Your entire reasoning is based on the assumption that harsher punishments are a better deterrent. Selective quoting...I know. :thumbsup: However... Better policing, a judiciary willing to actually enforce the penalties proscribed in law, and a much smaller number of scumbag lawyers who defend and appeal simply because they get paid to (finding a lawyer who does the Right Thing and not the Legal Thing...it's a pipedream of mine :rolleyes: )...all of these would make for a significant reduction in the rate of crime. But that costs money. Something which appears to be in short supply at the moment. In fact, one of the favorite things for politicians to try and save money on, is Law Enforcement. (not to mention education.....) What Marharth doesn't seem to quite get a grasp on is, Exile to a different society is EXACTLY what prisons are. When you throw a bunch of violent offenders together, what do you EXPECT to get? Do you think if we exiled them to some small island, and kept adding yet MORE violent offenders, that they would form a society that was NOT based on violence? That is pretty flippin' delusional.This is what people seem to think when I say "different society." The difference between exile and moving someone is that exile implies that they are being taken from everything native to them. Prisons still exist on your home land, they still have the same people, and visiting times are possible. I would not consider that complete exile, if exile at all. I am not saying throw prisoners on a island with no guards, I am saying make prisons a bit more human so they act more as a separator and a rehabilitation program then a punishment. And how do you propose to do that? How do you propose to PAY for it? Folks have tried convincing prisons to become "for profit" businesses, but, that never really went well, (due to human nature, oddly enough) If you make prisons a "nice", or even "reasonable" place to be, they lose their deterrent value. Rehabilitation was tried before too..... that didn't turn out very well either. Recidivism rates remained unchanged.The prisoners would work jobs, most of the profit from the jobs would go straight back into the system. Rehabilitation is stilled claimed to be being tried. It was never tried, that has been a lie for years to make people think the prison system is fine. For profit prisons do fine currently, and they do much better then public prisons. I am pretty sure most of the prisons in the US are private prisons now. As for the rest, read vagrants post. Private prisons are STILL paid for by the state, and in the end, your tax dollars. The prison corporation might turn a profit, but, it is the government/your taxes that provides that money. Only change here is, who owns the prison. Edited July 19, 2011 by myrmaad Complaints regarding multiblock post abuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marharth Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) Reveal hidden contents On 7/18/2011 at 4:14 PM, HeyYou said: On 7/18/2011 at 6:42 AM, marharth said: On 7/18/2011 at 2:36 AM, HeyYou said: On 7/18/2011 at 12:16 AM, marharth said: On 7/17/2011 at 5:21 PM, HeyYou said: On 7/17/2011 at 11:38 AM, Sync182 said: On 7/16/2011 at 10:26 PM, LadyMilla said: Your entire reasoning is based on the assumption that harsher punishments are a better deterrent. Selective quoting...I know. :thumbsup: However... Better policing, a judiciary willing to actually enforce the penalties proscribed in law, and a much smaller number of scumbag lawyers who defend and appeal simply because they get paid to (finding a lawyer who does the Right Thing and not the Legal Thing...it's a pipedream of mine :rolleyes: )...all of these would make for a significant reduction in the rate of crime. But that costs money. Something which appears to be in short supply at the moment. In fact, one of the favorite things for politicians to try and save money on, is Law Enforcement. (not to mention education.....) What Marharth doesn't seem to quite get a grasp on is, Exile to a different society is EXACTLY what prisons are. When you throw a bunch of violent offenders together, what do you EXPECT to get? Do you think if we exiled them to some small island, and kept adding yet MORE violent offenders, that they would form a society that was NOT based on violence? That is pretty flippin' delusional.This is what people seem to think when I say "different society." The difference between exile and moving someone is that exile implies that they are being taken from everything native to them. Prisons still exist on your home land, they still have the same people, and visiting times are possible. I would not consider that complete exile, if exile at all. I am not saying throw prisoners on a island with no guards, I am saying make prisons a bit more human so they act more as a separator and a rehabilitation program then a punishment. And how do you propose to do that? How do you propose to PAY for it? Folks have tried convincing prisons to become "for profit" businesses, but, that never really went well, (due to human nature, oddly enough) If you make prisons a "nice", or even "reasonable" place to be, they lose their deterrent value. Rehabilitation was tried before too..... that didn't turn out very well either. Recidivism rates remained unchanged.The prisoners would work jobs, most of the profit from the jobs would go straight back into the system. Rehabilitation is stilled claimed to be being tried. It was never tried, that has been a lie for years to make people think the prison system is fine. For profit prisons do fine currently, and they do much better then public prisons. I am pretty sure most of the prisons in the US are private prisons now. As for the rest, read vagrants post. Private prisons are STILL paid for by the state, and in the end, your tax dollars. The prison corporation might turn a profit, but, it is the government/your taxes that provides that money. Only change here is, who owns the prison. Why would it matter if tax dollars paid for it or not? If prisoners did productive jobs the prions could pay for themselves. Edited July 19, 2011 by myrmaad Complaints regarding multiblock post abuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyYou Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Reveal hidden contents On 7/18/2011 at 5:09 PM, marharth said: On 7/18/2011 at 4:14 PM, HeyYou said: On 7/18/2011 at 6:42 AM, marharth said: On 7/18/2011 at 2:36 AM, HeyYou said: On 7/18/2011 at 12:16 AM, marharth said: On 7/17/2011 at 5:21 PM, HeyYou said: On 7/17/2011 at 11:38 AM, Sync182 said: On 7/16/2011 at 10:26 PM, LadyMilla said: Your entire reasoning is based on the assumption that harsher punishments are a better deterrent. Selective quoting...I know. :thumbsup: However... Better policing, a judiciary willing to actually enforce the penalties proscribed in law, and a much smaller number of scumbag lawyers who defend and appeal simply because they get paid to (finding a lawyer who does the Right Thing and not the Legal Thing...it's a pipedream of mine :rolleyes: )...all of these would make for a significant reduction in the rate of crime. But that costs money. Something which appears to be in short supply at the moment. In fact, one of the favorite things for politicians to try and save money on, is Law Enforcement. (not to mention education.....) What Marharth doesn't seem to quite get a grasp on is, Exile to a different society is EXACTLY what prisons are. When you throw a bunch of violent offenders together, what do you EXPECT to get? Do you think if we exiled them to some small island, and kept adding yet MORE violent offenders, that they would form a society that was NOT based on violence? That is pretty flippin' delusional.This is what people seem to think when I say "different society." The difference between exile and moving someone is that exile implies that they are being taken from everything native to them. Prisons still exist on your home land, they still have the same people, and visiting times are possible. I would not consider that complete exile, if exile at all. I am not saying throw prisoners on a island with no guards, I am saying make prisons a bit more human so they act more as a separator and a rehabilitation program then a punishment. And how do you propose to do that? How do you propose to PAY for it? Folks have tried convincing prisons to become "for profit" businesses, but, that never really went well, (due to human nature, oddly enough) If you make prisons a "nice", or even "reasonable" place to be, they lose their deterrent value. Rehabilitation was tried before too..... that didn't turn out very well either. Recidivism rates remained unchanged.The prisoners would work jobs, most of the profit from the jobs would go straight back into the system. Rehabilitation is stilled claimed to be being tried. It was never tried, that has been a lie for years to make people think the prison system is fine. For profit prisons do fine currently, and they do much better then public prisons. I am pretty sure most of the prisons in the US are private prisons now. As for the rest, read vagrants post. Private prisons are STILL paid for by the state, and in the end, your tax dollars. The prison corporation might turn a profit, but, it is the government/your taxes that provides that money. Only change here is, who owns the prison.Why would it matter if tax dollars paid for it or not? If prisoners did productive jobs the prions could pay for themselves. So, go out and buy yourself a prison, and see how far you get with that idea. Don't think it hasn't been tried before. You would be very wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marharth Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Reveal hidden contents On 7/18/2011 at 6:05 PM, HeyYou said: On 7/18/2011 at 5:09 PM, marharth said: On 7/18/2011 at 4:14 PM, HeyYou said: On 7/18/2011 at 6:42 AM, marharth said: On 7/18/2011 at 2:36 AM, HeyYou said: On 7/18/2011 at 12:16 AM, marharth said: On 7/17/2011 at 5:21 PM, HeyYou said: On 7/17/2011 at 11:38 AM, Sync182 said: On 7/16/2011 at 10:26 PM, LadyMilla said: Your entire reasoning is based on the assumption that harsher punishments are a better deterrent. Selective quoting...I know. :thumbsup: However... Better policing, a judiciary willing to actually enforce the penalties proscribed in law, and a much smaller number of scumbag lawyers who defend and appeal simply because they get paid to (finding a lawyer who does the Right Thing and not the Legal Thing...it's a pipedream of mine :rolleyes: )...all of these would make for a significant reduction in the rate of crime. But that costs money. Something which appears to be in short supply at the moment. In fact, one of the favorite things for politicians to try and save money on, is Law Enforcement. (not to mention education.....) What Marharth doesn't seem to quite get a grasp on is, Exile to a different society is EXACTLY what prisons are. When you throw a bunch of violent offenders together, what do you EXPECT to get? Do you think if we exiled them to some small island, and kept adding yet MORE violent offenders, that they would form a society that was NOT based on violence? That is pretty flippin' delusional.This is what people seem to think when I say "different society." The difference between exile and moving someone is that exile implies that they are being taken from everything native to them. Prisons still exist on your home land, they still have the same people, and visiting times are possible. I would not consider that complete exile, if exile at all. I am not saying throw prisoners on a island with no guards, I am saying make prisons a bit more human so they act more as a separator and a rehabilitation program then a punishment. And how do you propose to do that? How do you propose to PAY for it? Folks have tried convincing prisons to become "for profit" businesses, but, that never really went well, (due to human nature, oddly enough) If you make prisons a "nice", or even "reasonable" place to be, they lose their deterrent value. Rehabilitation was tried before too..... that didn't turn out very well either. Recidivism rates remained unchanged.The prisoners would work jobs, most of the profit from the jobs would go straight back into the system. Rehabilitation is stilled claimed to be being tried. It was never tried, that has been a lie for years to make people think the prison system is fine. For profit prisons do fine currently, and they do much better then public prisons. I am pretty sure most of the prisons in the US are private prisons now. As for the rest, read vagrants post. Private prisons are STILL paid for by the state, and in the end, your tax dollars. The prison corporation might turn a profit, but, it is the government/your taxes that provides that money. Only change here is, who owns the prison.Why would it matter if tax dollars paid for it or not? If prisoners did productive jobs the prions could pay for themselves. So, go out and buy yourself a prison, and see how far you get with that idea. Don't think it hasn't been tried before. You would be very wrong. You do realize that private prisons make a ton of money right? Obviously the money is not just tax dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyYou Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Reveal hidden contents On 7/18/2011 at 6:12 PM, marharth said: On 7/18/2011 at 6:05 PM, HeyYou said: On 7/18/2011 at 5:09 PM, marharth said: On 7/18/2011 at 4:14 PM, HeyYou said: On 7/18/2011 at 6:42 AM, marharth said: On 7/18/2011 at 2:36 AM, HeyYou said: On 7/18/2011 at 12:16 AM, marharth said: On 7/17/2011 at 5:21 PM, HeyYou said: On 7/17/2011 at 11:38 AM, Sync182 said: On 7/16/2011 at 10:26 PM, LadyMilla said: Your entire reasoning is based on the assumption that harsher punishments are a better deterrent. Selective quoting...I know. :thumbsup: However... Better policing, a judiciary willing to actually enforce the penalties proscribed in law, and a much smaller number of scumbag lawyers who defend and appeal simply because they get paid to (finding a lawyer who does the Right Thing and not the Legal Thing...it's a pipedream of mine :rolleyes: )...all of these would make for a significant reduction in the rate of crime. But that costs money. Something which appears to be in short supply at the moment. In fact, one of the favorite things for politicians to try and save money on, is Law Enforcement. (not to mention education.....) What Marharth doesn't seem to quite get a grasp on is, Exile to a different society is EXACTLY what prisons are. When you throw a bunch of violent offenders together, what do you EXPECT to get? Do you think if we exiled them to some small island, and kept adding yet MORE violent offenders, that they would form a society that was NOT based on violence? That is pretty flippin' delusional.This is what people seem to think when I say "different society." The difference between exile and moving someone is that exile implies that they are being taken from everything native to them. Prisons still exist on your home land, they still have the same people, and visiting times are possible. I would not consider that complete exile, if exile at all. I am not saying throw prisoners on a island with no guards, I am saying make prisons a bit more human so they act more as a separator and a rehabilitation program then a punishment. And how do you propose to do that? How do you propose to PAY for it? Folks have tried convincing prisons to become "for profit" businesses, but, that never really went well, (due to human nature, oddly enough) If you make prisons a "nice", or even "reasonable" place to be, they lose their deterrent value. Rehabilitation was tried before too..... that didn't turn out very well either. Recidivism rates remained unchanged.The prisoners would work jobs, most of the profit from the jobs would go straight back into the system. Rehabilitation is stilled claimed to be being tried. It was never tried, that has been a lie for years to make people think the prison system is fine. For profit prisons do fine currently, and they do much better then public prisons. I am pretty sure most of the prisons in the US are private prisons now. As for the rest, read vagrants post. Private prisons are STILL paid for by the state, and in the end, your tax dollars. The prison corporation might turn a profit, but, it is the government/your taxes that provides that money. Only change here is, who owns the prison.Why would it matter if tax dollars paid for it or not? If prisoners did productive jobs the prions could pay for themselves. So, go out and buy yourself a prison, and see how far you get with that idea. Don't think it hasn't been tried before. You would be very wrong.You do realize that private prisons make a ton of money right? Obviously the money is not just tax dollars. Its ALL tax dollars. Do a bit of research please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marharth Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Reveal hidden contents On 7/18/2011 at 6:27 PM, HeyYou said: On 7/18/2011 at 6:12 PM, marharth said: On 7/18/2011 at 6:05 PM, HeyYou said: On 7/18/2011 at 5:09 PM, marharth said: On 7/18/2011 at 4:14 PM, HeyYou said: On 7/18/2011 at 6:42 AM, marharth said: On 7/18/2011 at 2:36 AM, HeyYou said: On 7/18/2011 at 12:16 AM, marharth said: On 7/17/2011 at 5:21 PM, HeyYou said: On 7/17/2011 at 11:38 AM, Sync182 said: On 7/16/2011 at 10:26 PM, LadyMilla said: Your entire reasoning is based on the assumption that harsher punishments are a better deterrent. Selective quoting...I know. :thumbsup: However... Better policing, a judiciary willing to actually enforce the penalties proscribed in law, and a much smaller number of scumbag lawyers who defend and appeal simply because they get paid to (finding a lawyer who does the Right Thing and not the Legal Thing...it's a pipedream of mine :rolleyes: )...all of these would make for a significant reduction in the rate of crime. But that costs money. Something which appears to be in short supply at the moment. In fact, one of the favorite things for politicians to try and save money on, is Law Enforcement. (not to mention education.....) What Marharth doesn't seem to quite get a grasp on is, Exile to a different society is EXACTLY what prisons are. When you throw a bunch of violent offenders together, what do you EXPECT to get? Do you think if we exiled them to some small island, and kept adding yet MORE violent offenders, that they would form a society that was NOT based on violence? That is pretty flippin' delusional.This is what people seem to think when I say "different society." The difference between exile and moving someone is that exile implies that they are being taken from everything native to them. Prisons still exist on your home land, they still have the same people, and visiting times are possible. I would not consider that complete exile, if exile at all. I am not saying throw prisoners on a island with no guards, I am saying make prisons a bit more human so they act more as a separator and a rehabilitation program then a punishment. And how do you propose to do that? How do you propose to PAY for it? Folks have tried convincing prisons to become "for profit" businesses, but, that never really went well, (due to human nature, oddly enough) If you make prisons a "nice", or even "reasonable" place to be, they lose their deterrent value. Rehabilitation was tried before too..... that didn't turn out very well either. Recidivism rates remained unchanged.The prisoners would work jobs, most of the profit from the jobs would go straight back into the system. Rehabilitation is stilled claimed to be being tried. It was never tried, that has been a lie for years to make people think the prison system is fine. For profit prisons do fine currently, and they do much better then public prisons. I am pretty sure most of the prisons in the US are private prisons now. As for the rest, read vagrants post. Private prisons are STILL paid for by the state, and in the end, your tax dollars. The prison corporation might turn a profit, but, it is the government/your taxes that provides that money. Only change here is, who owns the prison.Why would it matter if tax dollars paid for it or not? If prisoners did productive jobs the prions could pay for themselves. So, go out and buy yourself a prison, and see how far you get with that idea. Don't think it hasn't been tried before. You would be very wrong.You do realize that private prisons make a ton of money right? Obviously the money is not just tax dollars. Its ALL tax dollars. Do a bit of research please. If it was all tax dollars then they should be close to the public systems. Either way that is besides the point, you don't even need to have extra payments for my system to work. It can still be paid for by tax dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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