Depression

[marharth]

@ marharth and kvnchrist,

You both really have no idea. I would suggest you do some reading on depression and other associated mental health issues and their treatment.

 

I just don't like seeing a society that becoming entirely reliant on medicine to fix all of their problems. It is starting to get to the point of abuse for some.

 

I am sure some people will need to have medicine to treat depression, but as I said there are other ways to get the substances within the pills that can help greatly.

 

Marharth...

Are you speaking from experience or hearsay? Besides over reliance on psych medications for mental illness, there are many other abuses of prescribed medicines. For example over use of antibiotics which have led to resistant bacteria and super bugs among other things.

 

Some people also pressure their doctors because thy don't feel they get their money's worth without a prescription. The doctor can of course refuse, but then there's litigation and all sorts of other issues. Mental health is a very complex field and has had stigma attached to it since ...well forever.

Did you read my other posts?

 

I said that medicine is sometimes needs for mental illnesses and depression.

 

I understand that some cases of depression will need outside sources to help it.

 

You do rarely NEED pills from pharmaceutical companies though. There are other ways to get the substances in the pills.

 

I don't quit understand what your trying to say.

[Maigrets]

I said that medicine is sometimes needs for mental illnesses and depression.

 

I understand that some cases of depression will need outside sources to help it.

 

You do rarely NEED pills from pharmaceutical companies though. There are other ways to get the substances in the pills.

 

I don't quit understand what your trying to say.

 

I did read your other posts marhath, and the rest of the topic. I read the debates section nearly every day actually.

 

You are making a statement about the need for medication with nothing to back it up. That's what I meant about speaking from experience or what you may have heard from someone else. What do you actually know about depression and how it's treated?

 

You contradict yourself when you say this after you say you recognize the need for medicines and outside help.

You do rarely NEED pills from pharmaceutical companies though. There are other ways to get the substances in the pills.

 

The main question I have is how do you know someone rarely needs pills from pharmaceutical companies? Isn't that up to a psychologist or psychiatrist to determine, especially in the acute stages? And more importantly since most of these drugs, but not all, are synthetic, what are the other ways to get the substances in the pills?

 

There are natural treatments like St John's Wort, but in an acute state where a person may be contemplating suicide that is never going to work. Herbal remedies can take many weeks to have an effect which is fine if the person is not a danger to themselves, but there is a place and necessity, as I said in my previous post, for medications in a short term crisis situation.

 

Just because a product or treatment is a so called "natural" remedy doesn't mean it's harmless or better either. Many herbal and other homeopathic treatments can be dangerous if used incorrectly, just as pills from a drug company can be. Even certain vitamins taken incorrectly in huge doses can cause severe problems.

 

People are often under a misconception that "natural" must be safer. Sometimes it is if used properly, but many people are poisoned by natural remedies as much as synthetic ones. Many pills made by drug companies to treat other health problems like heart disease for example, are actually derived from plants and other substances, so they are not all synthetic.

 

Unfortunately, mental health problems are escalating world wide so some kind of better solution needs to be found, but I have no idea what that would be. I would say education and more funding to mental health research etc, but that doesn't stop the causes which are often physical and unavoidable. Like chemical and hormonal imbalances and genetics.

[marharth]

I said that medicine is sometimes needs for mental illnesses and depression.

 

I understand that some cases of depression will need outside sources to help it.

 

You do rarely NEED pills from pharmaceutical companies though. There are other ways to get the substances in the pills.

 

I don't quit understand what your trying to say.

 

I did read your other posts marhath, and the rest of the topic. I read the debates section nearly every day actually.

 

You are making a statement about the need for medication with nothing to back it up. That's what I meant about speaking from experience or what you may have heard from someone else. What do you actually know about depression and how it's treated?

 

You contradict yourself when you say this after you say you recognize the need for medicines and outside help.

You do rarely NEED pills from pharmaceutical companies though. There are other ways to get the substances in the pills.

 

The main question I have is how do you know someone rarely needs pills from pharmaceutical companies? Isn't that up to a psychologist or psychiatrist to determine, especially in the acute stages? And more importantly since most of these drugs, but not all, are synthetic, what are the other ways to get the substances in the pills?

 

There are natural treatments like St John's Wort, but in an acute state where a person may be contemplating suicide that is never going to work. Herbal remedies can take many weeks to have an effect which is fine if the person is not a danger to themselves, but there is a place and necessity, as I said in my previous post, for medications in a short term crisis situation.

 

Just because a product or treatment is a so called "natural" remedy doesn't mean it's harmless or better either. Many herbal and other homeopathic treatments can be dangerous if used incorrectly, just as pills from a drug company can be. Even certain vitamins taken incorrectly in huge doses can cause severe problems.

 

People are often under a misconception that "natural" must be safer. Sometimes it is if used properly, but many people are poisoned by natural remedies as much as synthetic ones. Many pills made by drug companies to treat other health problems like heart disease for example, are actually derived from plants and other substances, so they are not all synthetic.

 

Unfortunately, mental health problems are escalating world wide so some kind of better solution needs to be found, but I have no idea what that would be. I would say education and more funding to mental health research etc, but that doesn't stop the causes which are often physical and unavoidable. Like chemical and hormonal imbalances and genetics.

Why do mental health issues keep increasing when the world has far advanced medical technology from in the past? It is clearly not a issue with genetics or the human race as a whole. It is clearly not a issue with the mind changing over time. I know some people suffer from depression, but I don't really think that its a entirely mental issue for a lot of people. The minds of people are not being changed in the last one hundred years.

 

Multiple studies have been done on the effectiveness of anti depression medicine, there hasn't been any real solid results that I know of. I would like to know if you have a study that would show that anti depressants are effective.

 

I am not a professional. These forums are not meant for professionals. We are not professors of political science either. Saying that I can't make a argument simply due to not being a doctor makes no sense. Personal experience is not a solid standing point for your argument either.

 

"You contradict yourself when you say this after you say you recognize the need for medicines and outside help."

Why? I have said multiple times that medicines and outside help are sometimes needed. I am worried about a over reliance of medicine.

 

"There are natural treatments like St John's Wort, but in an acute state where a person may be contemplating suicide that is never going to work. Herbal remedies can take many weeks to have an effect which is fine if the person is not a danger to themselves, but there is a place and necessity, as I said in my previous post, for medications in a short term crisis situation."

 

If you are thinking about suicide you can't just pop a pill to fix it, pills take hours to kick it. You have to have a wait time for the pills as well.

[Maigrets]

I am not a professional. These forums are not meant for professionals. We are not professors of political science either. Saying that I can't make a argument simply due to not being a doctor makes no sense. Personal experience is not a solid standing point for your argument either.

 

I'm not a professional either, but I also don't claim to know more than the real professionals about true cause and effect in any field, so why, according to you, is personal experience also of no value. Personal in what actually happened to me and my 30 plus year nursing career where I learned a lot through observation and listening to people as much as hands on experience.

 

I never said you can't make an argument either, but you have no basis for one when you put forward ideas without facts when there are plenty of them, for and against just about anything. You are as capable as I am of searching Google for information. The main fact is that even the professionals know very little about the brain and it's functions as far as mental health compared to what they actually do know.

[marharth]

I am not a professional. These forums are not meant for professionals. We are not professors of political science either. Saying that I can't make a argument simply due to not being a doctor makes no sense. Personal experience is not a solid standing point for your argument either.

 

I'm not a professional either, but I also don't claim to know more than the real professionals about true cause and effect in any field, so why, according to you, is personal experience also of no value. Personal in what actually happened to me and my 30 plus year nursing career where I learned a lot through observation and listening to people as much as hands on experience.

 

I never said you can't make an argument either, but you have no basis for one when you put forward ideas without facts when there are plenty of them, for and against just about anything. You are as capable as I am of searching Google for information. The main fact is that even the professionals know very little about the brain and it's functions as far as mental health compared to what they actually do know.

That is all true, which is why I am trying to speculate based on other information.

 

Honestly a lot of mental health issues would go away if a lot of the stress in this world were to go away too. It doesn't seem likely that a mass amount of human minds changed in the last one hundred years just randomly. I only see pharmaceuticals as a temporary fix.

[Sync182]

Why do mental health issues keep increasing when the world has far advanced medical technology from in the past? It is clearly not a issue with genetics or the human race as a whole. It is clearly not a issue with the mind changing over time. I know some people suffer from depression, but I don't really think that its a entirely mental issue for a lot of people. The minds of people are not being changed in the last one hundred years.

 

I'll take this one.

 

You're right - the minds of people haven't changed an awful lot in recent times.

 

But the pressures being brought to bear on the human mind by the ever-increasing pace of today's society IS changing...and not in a way that benefits many people.

 

To use your own timeline of 100 years:

* did companies put pressure on people to make a 10 hour trip in 9.5 hours 100 years ago as they do today?

* did your boss give you 5 projects with a deadline each of next Friday 100 years ago as happens today?

* did work intrude on your home life 100 years ago as it does today?

* did people get angry because you couldn't make that waste-of-time meeting because you had a family emergency 100 years ago as they do today?

* did banks, utiliy companies, insurers, governments, etc... take as much from you and give less back 100 years ago as they do today?

* ...I'm sure there's more examples, but that will do.

 

People haven't changed much, true: but the world we live in has changed dramatically in the past 100 years, and some people haven't had a chance to fully catch up with it. These are the people who can fall victim to Depression.

 

I do not believe, from reading your posts since I joined this thread, that you are debating from first-hand, practical experience...rather, I believe you are debating from third-party references.

 

I hope that you don't fall victim to the Black Dog; but you will never fully understand the nature of Depression until you do.

[marharth]

Why do mental health issues keep increasing when the world has far advanced medical technology from in the past? It is clearly not a issue with genetics or the human race as a whole. It is clearly not a issue with the mind changing over time. I know some people suffer from depression, but I don't really think that its a entirely mental issue for a lot of people. The minds of people are not being changed in the last one hundred years.

 

I'll take this one.

 

You're right - the minds of people haven't changed an awful lot in recent times.

 

But the pressures being brought to bear on the human mind by the ever-increasing pace of today's society IS changing...and not in a way that benefits many people.

 

To use your own timeline of 100 years:

* did companies put pressure on people to make a 10 hour trip in 9.5 hours 100 years ago as they do today?

* did your boss give you 5 projects with a deadline each of next Friday 100 years ago as happens today?

* did work intrude on your home life 100 years ago as it does today?

* did people get angry because you couldn't make that waste-of-time meeting because you had a family emergency 100 years ago as they do today?

* did banks, utiliy companies, insurers, governments, etc... take as much from you and give less back 100 years ago as they do today?

* ...I'm sure there's more examples, but that will do.

 

People haven't changed much, true: but the world we live in has changed dramatically in the past 100 years, and some people haven't had a chance to fully catch up with it. These are the people who can fall victim to Depression.

 

I do not believe, from reading your posts since I joined this thread, that you are debating from first-hand, practical experience...rather, I believe you are debating from third-party references.

 

I hope that you don't fall victim to the Black Dog; but you will never fully understand the nature of Depression until you do.

The thing is that it is a problem with society and the modern world.

 

We should be looking for a long term solution to depression, and not become over reliant on medicine.

[Lisnpuppy]

OK...a bit later than intended on this topic but better late that never, eh? I also am sorry this is a bit wordy and I have gotten on my soap box...but..well I just had to do so.

 

To begin...as some of you know I have a myriad of medical issues large and small. Modern medicine and medications having saved (and still saving) my sorry arse on more than one occasion makes me a proponent of both things. I absolutely 100% agree that medications are often over-prescribed. Many people look to drugs and medications as a quick fix to something and often ignore directions or finding out what the underlying cause of the issue is. Pharmaceutical companies spend huge amounts of money on advertizing both with regular folks and with the doctor's themselves (doctor's get courted with meals, hard to get tickets to sports and entertainment and all kinds of things to sample out a companies meds and to recommend the newest meds to folks.)

 

Whose fault is this? Well a bit of everyone I think. To begin personal responsibility for your medical care should be a priority. If you decide to take something then you should know what it is, the possible side effects, how to take the meds properly and the reason you take the darn thing. Have any of you ever seen someone come in to the doctor with a bag full of their pills and be clueless as to the whats and whys. As a patient you should insist of your doctor treating the CAUSE of the issue as well as the symptoms. Yes this is your responsibility also, good doctors will do this but they are human and sometimes need a gentle nudge.

 

The advertizement of drugs, the wanting of a quick fix...all of this also plays a role in the over-prescribing of medications. I also worry about the over prescribing of antibiotics. This is why these super-bugs are developing because patients insist and doctor's give the patients antibiotics for viruses or other ailments that do not NEED them. Don't get me wrong...I live and die (sometimes closely literal) by antibiotics. However I know I do not always need them and will try to fight off infections myself when possible. Holistic meds and natural remedies are wonderful also...but are over-used, do not always work as they are claimed (for example cinnamon can be used to treat blood sugar but the shear AMOUNT it would actually take to do good...well...I am not sure anyone wants that much.) Also as the FDA do not control these herbal things the interactions they may have with you, each other and any prescribed medications you may take are not known and sometimes VERY DANGEROUS so you need to do your homework and make sure to tell the doctor that you take these also.

 

Now onto the depression. I suffer from chronic, reoccurring severe depression. It is NOT THE SAME as being DEPRESSED. Trust me. When I am suffering from my mental illness it may not be that I was UNHAPPY or DEPRESSED about something to begin. My life could be as close to damn near perfect and still I would slip down the slope. Trying to describe how depression feels to someone that never has had it is to me, impossible. There are times that it takes every bit of energy in me to get out of the bed. I will not go here into a blow-by-blow description of my symptoms...you want to know you can ask me. But the just wanting to change is not always enough to climb from the pit of despair I often find myself.

 

Does the want and the will to change play a part in treatment? Yes OMG yes. I have been through therapy and I recommend it 100% to lots of folk...mental illness or just social issues. I did group therapy and let me tell you I think it was way better than any one-on-one I had with the powers that be. I have a wonderful story about me and my initial unwillingness to be there if anyone wants to hear it...that may be frightened or off-put by therapy in general. Please talk to me and I would be happy to share.

 

That being said...I also have taken (and am taking) med for depression. I have at times been forced to stop taking them for financial reasons and it takes about 2 days for things to start spiraling out of control.

 

For me....it takes (note I do not say took) both things to really help. One thing on its own is not helpful....as there always seems to be a little hill over which I can not climb. Personally I don't think depression is CURED. I think you have...lets say remission of the symptoms. You learn to deal better with things in therapy that help you from getting that broken record playing in your own brain that inevitably will trip you up again.

 

Both a patient and the doctor have to be willing to work and communicate to really treat something. Patient responsibility is important. Your time is just as valuable as your physician. When he or she comes to your room....you sit on them if necessary to ask the questions you need and tell them the things that are important. Make list so you don't forget and DO NOT BE AFRAID to tell them things that go on with you!! Remember also that you may have to try many things before you get something solved.

 

Each person is different and to say we don't need so many medications as a blanket statement is foolish and irresponsible. Maybe you and your doctor think YOU have taken too many. Perhaps a generalization...but some of you people.....your very snobbish and seemingly arrogant attitudes on depression and medications is bothersome to me. I am disappointed in some of you. This attitude that I have seen here with some....well its one of the reasons mental illness is STILL so hard to treat.

 

So think before you speak....and don't claim to know EVERYTHING if you have not yet walked a mile in my shoes.

[Sync182]

The thing is that it is a problem with society and the modern world.

 

We should be looking for a long term solution to depression, and not become over reliant on medicine.

 

Okay, then.

 

YOU tell the Big Corporations to stop with their demanding schedules.

 

YOU tell the average consumer that they'll have to wait an extra 10 minutes before they can get their new self-gratification present.

 

YOU tell the owner-driver of a semi trailer that it won't matter if he takes an extra 15 minute rest break during that interstate haul.

 

The realities of today's customer-driven society - complete with its "me first, stuff the rest of you" attitude - is that no-one can afford to offend the customer, because if the customer can't get what they want, when they want it, the customer will go elsewhere and find someone who can.

 

Everyone wants everything now...regardless of how much strain those demands cause on the people who end up delivering. "The customer is always right", says the mantra...even when everyone knows damned well the customer is a drooling moron who has no idea at all.

 

Neither the effects of Depression, nor the rates of occurrance, will begin to decrease until society-at-large gets a massive smack up the back of its collective head accompanied by a very large call to wake up to itself and realise that it is causing the very troubles it says it wants to cure.

 

And...

 

What time-line to you call "long term"? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?

 

Will any of that help the man who kills himself next week because Clinical Depression beat him and attitudes like yours told him not to rely on the medication that probably would have saved him?

 

Are some conditions over-medicated? Yes, they sure as hell are. But this thread is specifically about DEPRESSION, and you are yet to convince me you know anything about it.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Sync182

[marharth]

The thing is that it is a problem with society and the modern world.

 

We should be looking for a long term solution to depression, and not become over reliant on medicine.

 

Okay, then.

 

YOU tell the Big Corporations to stop with their demanding schedules.

 

YOU tell the average consumer that they'll have to wait an extra 10 minutes before they can get their new self-gratification present.

 

YOU tell the owner-driver of a semi trailer that it won't matter if he takes an extra 15 minute rest break during that interstate haul.

 

The realities of today's customer-driven society - complete with its "me first, stuff the rest of you" attitude - is that no-one can afford to offend the customer, because if the customer can't get what they want, when they want it, the customer will go elsewhere and find someone who can.

 

Everyone wants everything now...regardless of how much strain those demands cause on the people who end up delivering. "The customer is always right", says the mantra...even when everyone knows damned well the customer is a drooling moron who has no idea at all.

 

Neither the effects of Depression, nor the rates of occurrance, will begin to decrease until society-at-large gets a massive smack up the back of its collective head accompanied by a very large call to wake up to itself and realise that it is causing the very troubles it says it wants to cure.

 

And...

 

What time-line to you call "long term"? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?

 

Will any of that help the man who kills himself next week because Clinical Depression beat him and attitudes like yours told him not to rely on the medication that probably would have saved him?

 

Are some conditions over-medicated? Yes, they sure as hell are. But this thread is specifically about DEPRESSION, and you are yet to convince me you know anything about it.

Do you still not understand that I have said medicine is fine if you need it? I think this is the fourth time I said that.

 

I have not said you should never take medication. Individual people will require medication. My argument is for humanity and society as a whole.

 

My entire point is that its a bad idea for society as a whole to become over reliant on medicine, and it would be better off for everyone to fix society instead of returning to short term solutions.