Depression

[Balagor]

My grandma was Bipolar, my mom was Bipolar, my brother is Bipolar, I am Bipolar.

My little research proves a lot. Otherwise goolge "Generic inheritments of mental disorders"

[marharth]

My grandma was Bipolar, my mom was Bipolar, my brother is Bipolar, I am Bipolar.

My little research proves a lot. Otherwise goolge "Generic inheritments of mental disorders"

I am not auguring that all mental disorders are not genetic, I am auguring the majority are likely caused after birth.

[Maigrets]

How do you know they have been around for centuries if we can only identify them now? There has been mental illness in the past and pretty much forever but I don't know if you could identify a large number of cases of depression from the past.

 

Because people have been able to communicate via the written word, story telling and other means which has kept history alive for those centuries and longer. Most of the types of mental illness we identify now have been around for as long as man has been able to communicate and pass on knowledge and have also been called many different names. Melancholia was one name given to various types of depression. They are still the same thing, no matter what they are called today.

 

Read this as a starting point and find out about mental illness through the centuries from the Ancient Greeks, the Romans, Persia and Europe for example. In other words, all of past civilization where history has been recorded mentions depression in one form or another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_depression

 

My argument is that a majority of mental illnesses are caused after birth, and are not genetic. I would like you to proof that wrong. If you can I will accept defeat.

 

Perhaps you could do the same and prove your argument which is devoid of facts and is just supposition in one sentence statements. Here is another starting point, it's basic as I'm not going to do your research for you. You will notice there are seven commonly recognized causes of depression and genetics is very high on the list, figuratively speaking.

http://www.blackdoginstitute.org.au/public/depression/causesofdepression/genetics.cfm

 

[View Postgrannywils, on 23 July 2011 - 02:11 AM, said:

Just wondering here.....

 

Marharth and Sync182, could either one of you stop for just a moment listening to your own selves talking and listen to what Lisnpuppy just said?

 

This woman has just spoken from the heart and given you very specific information that you did not even take the time to respond to.

 

Way back, seems about 100 years ago I tried to refer to clinical depression in response to one of those somewhat flip posts to which Linspuppy is referring. Most of you are ignoring this very serious illness. Is the topic depression, or isn't it?

Yes, the stresses in our lives our monumental. Ok, so? Yes, the insurance industry sucks. Ok, so? Yes, doctors push pills way too much. Ok, so? You will get no argument from me on any of this. I have jumped up and down in my day over this kind of stuff more times than I would care to count...

 

Oh, and yes, we need to be responsible for looking after ourselves. Seems like someone just mentioned that, didn't she???

 

Depression exists nonetheless and requires treatment. In many cases, that treatment involves BOTH medication and therapy. Seems to me that was what the OP was looking for

 

One can't or shouldn't ultimately speak about depression or any other mental illness which depression is in fact, without discussing treatments, although the continuing point that keeps raising it's head about whether people actually need treatment or not, (and what that should be) is getting a bit wearing.

 

Lisnpuppy's heartfelt story was recognized by me and I have more than good reason to empathize. Her story wasn't the only one by the way, as personally revealing and informative as it was.

 

As for me, I mentioned my personal experience in passing a few pages back, but I'm afraid my extended story is not for public consumption. I am not and I stress NOT, having a go at anyone who does find it helpful or informative to speak on public forums about their private life. However, this is not something I feel comfortable doing, at least more than I already have here or elsewhere.

Suffice to say Lisnpuppy and I have a lot in common.

 

Also, as Marharth kept saying to me, "what has personal experience got to do with anything?" I wonder Marharth if this is why you didn't acknowledge Lisnpuppy's post or does it make you feel uncomfortable?

 

Personal experience is one of the most valuable tools in finding solutions to many problems, which is why patient case histories are so valuable to the researchers looking for cause and solutions.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Maigrets

[marharth]

How do you know they have been around for centuries if we can only identify them now? There has been mental illness in the past and pretty much forever but I don't know if you could identify a large number of cases of depression from the past.

 

Because people have been able to communicate via the written word, story telling and other means which has kept history alive for those centuries and longer. Most of the types of mental illness we identify now have been around for as long as man has been able to communicate and pass on knowledge and have also been called many different names. Melancholia was one name given to various types of depression. They are still the same thing, no matter what they are called today.

 

Read this as a starting point and find out about mental illness through the centuries from the Ancient Greeks, the Romans, Persia and Europe for example. In other words, all of past civilization where history has been recorded mentions depression in one form or another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_depression

 

My argument is that a majority of mental illnesses are caused after birth, and are not genetic. I would like you to proof that wrong. If you can I will accept defeat.

 

Perhaps you could do the same and prove your argument which is devoid of facts and is just supposition in one sentence statements. Here is another starting point, it's basic as I'm not going to do your research for you. You will notice there are seven commonly recognized causes of depression and genetics is very high on the list, figuratively speaking.

http://www.blackdoginstitute.org.au/public/depression/causesofdepression/genetics.cfm

 

[View Postgrannywils, on 23 July 2011 - 02:11 AM, said:

Just wondering here.....

 

Marharth and Sync182, could either one of you stop for just a moment listening to your own selves talking and listen to what Lisnpuppy just said?

 

This woman has just spoken from the heart and given you very specific information that you did not even take the time to respond to.

 

Way back, seems about 100 years ago I tried to refer to clinical depression in response to one of those somewhat flip posts to which Linspuppy is referring. Most of you are ignoring this very serious illness. Is the topic depression, or isn't it?

Yes, the stresses in our lives our monumental. Ok, so? Yes, the insurance industry sucks. Ok, so? Yes, doctors push pills way too much. Ok, so? You will get no argument from me on any of this. I have jumped up and down in my day over this kind of stuff more times than I would care to count...

 

Oh, and yes, we need to be responsible for looking after ourselves. Seems like someone just mentioned that, didn't she???

 

Depression exists nonetheless and requires treatment. In many cases, that treatment involves BOTH medication and therapy. Seems to me that was what the OP was looking for

 

One can't or shouldn't ultimately speak about depression or any other mental illness which depression is in fact, without discussing treatments, although the continuing point that keeps raising it's head about whether people actually need treatment or not, (and what that should be) is getting a bit wearing.

 

Lisnpuppy's heartfelt story was recognized by me and I have more than good reason to empathize. Her story wasn't the only one by the way, as personally revealing and informative as it was.

 

As for me, I mentioned my personal experience in passing a few pages back, but I'm afraid my extended story is not for public consumption. I am not and I stress NOT, having a go at anyone who does find it helpful or informative to speak on public forums about their private life. However, this is not something I feel comfortable doing, at least more than I already have here or elsewhere.

Suffice to say Lisnpuppy and I have a lot in common.

 

Also, as Marharth kept saying to me, "what has personal experience got to do with anything?" I wonder Marharth if this is why you didn't acknowledge Lisnpuppy's post or does it make you feel uncomfortable?

 

Personal experience is one of the most valuable tools in finding solutions to many problems, which is why patient case histories are so valuable to the researchers looking for cause and solutions.

Personal experience is not valid during a debate. Someone else made a post about this before. If your in a political debate you could claim you used to be a politician. If you are in a debate about the military you could claim that you used to be in the military.

 

Please read my posts again. I never said that mental illness never existed, I said that mental illnesses seem more common now. With new stresses in society it seems more likely.

 

"Perhaps you could do the same and prove your argument which is devoid of facts and is just supposition in one sentence statements. Here is another starting point, it's basic as I'm not going to do your research for you. You will notice there are seven commonly recognized causes of depression and genetics is very high on the list, figuratively speaking.

http://www.blackdoginstitute.org.au/public/depression/causesofdepression/genetics.cfm"

 

That list has nothing to do with what I asked. I have already said that I have searched for multiple polls on the matter and have yet to find any that have had a valid result. I have done research and can not find anything to support either of our points. If you don't have anything to back up your point either then it is all up to speculation, and both of us won't be able to convince each other. Also I have never denied that genetics are not a cause. I am saying environmental factors are more important.

 

Another flaw your showing here is the " I'm not going to do your research for you" thing. That's not how it works, if you want to prove a point you need to show sources. I am obviously auguring on the other side and have attempted to find polls and studies. If you can't find anything either then its not my issue.

 

 

That being said ill explain myself further.

 

The most common theory is that it is a genetic issue that has environmental triggers. That is why I think changing the environment would be better then constantly using medicine for the rest of entirety. If you can get rid of a large number of the things that trigger the disorders (which are almost always bad things such as stress) then you will not have a real problem with your genetics. Remember that I am auguring entirely for a long term solution.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diathesis-stress_model

 

If you don't trust Wikipedia, I will post another link.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17012942

 

 

So the way I see it, a long term solution would be to get rid of a lot of the triggers. Focusing on genetic engineering rather then using medicine for a long term solution is a better idea as well. Medicine will only be a short term solution, and depression will not be fixed until a long term solution can be found. I am looking at humanity as a whole here, not individual cases. We don't know how to fix the genes that cause that yet, so the best long term solution would be to remove a lot of the triggers.

 

Now that I have proved my point, I would like to see some real information regarding your theory the genetics are the only cause for depression.

 

For the short version.

I feel that since society has a large number of new stresses due to the complicity of the modern world. That would allow for more triggers for mental disorders.

Edited July 23, 2011 by marharth

[Aurielius]

"Personal experience is not valid during a debate. Someone else made a post about this before. If your in a political debate you could claim you used to be a politician. If you are in a debate about the military you could claim that you used to be in the military."

 

Another Marharthism....actual experience is not valid but skimming the Internet for information is, his classic defense of ignorance and a complete lack of world experience as a valid debating position. If real experience is not a valid starting point to debate a subject then what solid basis for his perfunctory opinions does he offer..? Education?..a relevant Degree?...actual interpersonal contact? I think I need to pull out my hip waders .....

 

Lisnpuppy, Grannywills & Maigrets..I found your posts enlightening and thank you for sharing a real world view of the topic. if not for your posts I would not have followed this thread.

 

 

 

 

[Balagor]

Okay, I´m off. All I have left is my personal experience, wich I btw value more than a million "wanna be professor" Google adicts :laugh:

[marharth]

"Personal experience is not valid during a debate. Someone else made a post about this before. If your in a political debate you could claim you used to be a politician. If you are in a debate about the military you could claim that you used to be in the military."

 

Another Marharthism....actual experience is not valid but skimming the Internet for information is, his classic defense of ignorance and a complete lack of world experience as a valid debating position. If real experience is not a valid starting point to debate a subject then what solid basis for his perfunctory opinions does he offer..? Education?..a relevant Degree?...actual interpersonal contact? I think I need to pull out my hip waders .....

 

Lisnpuppy, Grannywills & Maigrets..I found your posts enlightening and thank you for sharing a real world view of the topic. if not for your posts I would not have followed this thread.

 

 

 

 

Experience is valid, saying you have experience on a internet debate forum is not. I could tell you that I am sixty years old and have served in wars before. I could say I was a politician, or I could say I have a number of mental illnesses to help me in a debate. Since there is no proof of experience it is not a valid piece of evidence and it is not something that will help you.

 

Though of course you ignore my argument and go straight to personal insults though. I fail to understand why you still reply to me if you have nothing valid to say.

 

With that out of the way, care to actually make a point instead of claiming I support ignorance and bashing me personally?

[Lisnpuppy]

Sweetie...I think when talking about the over-use of meds you could in fact cite lots of "fact" sources...but when talking about medications treating depression having real world experience is a HUGE thing.

 

This isn't a political debate....in which if you are a politician wouldn't make your views more valid...if it was a debate on how government OPERATED then being a politician may be valid (and no we can not prove or disprove who is really what but you sound dangerously close to saying that people are making up things and I don't think you really mean that.) But we are talking about the relationship of medications to treatment of a disease....I think having the said disease and the way meds have or have not helped is probably the most valid thing here. Unlike other illnesses that can have measurements it is impossible to measure depression and the impact meds have on it OTHER than by patient reporting.

 

So...um..yeah...maybe you should rethink this one.

 

p.s. Also I would be careful quoting Wikipedia. As it can be handled or mishandled by anyone I never use it as more than a place to find other links. This is for everyone BTW *wink*

[marharth]

Sweetie...I think when talking about the over-use of meds you could in fact cite lots of "fact" sources...but when talking about medications treating depression having real world experience is a HUGE thing.

 

This isn't a political debate....in which if you are a politician wouldn't make your views more valid...if it was a debate on how government OPERATED then being a politician may be valid (and no we can not prove or disprove who is really what but you sound dangerously close to saying that people are making up things and I don't think you really mean that.) But we are talking about the relationship of medications to treatment of a disease....I think having the said disease and the way meds have or have not helped is probably the most valid thing here. Unlike other illnesses that can have measurements it is impossible to measure depression and the impact meds have on it OTHER than by patient reporting.

 

So...um..yeah...maybe you should rethink this one.

 

p.s. Also I would be careful quoting Wikipedia. As it can be handled or mishandled by anyone I never use it as moer than a place to find other links.

Wikipeida quotes all of its sources at the bottom of the page, you can redirect to those sources for everything that is stated as fact.

 

Someone else made a post elsewhere explaining why experience alone is useless, especially on a internet debate forum.

 

You may have experience and that's fine, but you may also have a difference experience then other people. You need to also be able to validate your experiences, not just say you have experience so your right.

 

I hope you understand what I am saying. It is not that having experience doesn't matter, is it that you need to have more then that since you can't prove such experience over a debate forum.

 

No offense intended either, just trying to explain that.

[Lisnpuppy]

Sweetie...I think when talking about the over-use of meds you could in fact cite lots of "fact" sources...but when talking about medications treating depression having real world experience is a HUGE thing.

 

This isn't a political debate....in which if you are a politician wouldn't make your views more valid...if it was a debate on how government OPERATED then being a politician may be valid (and no we can not prove or disprove who is really what but you sound dangerously close to saying that people are making up things and I don't think you really mean that.) But we are talking about the relationship of medications to treatment of a disease....I think having the said disease and the way meds have or have not helped is probably the most valid thing here. Unlike other illnesses that can have measurements it is impossible to measure depression and the impact meds have on it OTHER than by patient reporting.

 

So...um..yeah...maybe you should rethink this one.

 

p.s. Also I would be careful quoting Wikipedia. As it can be handled or mishandled by anyone I never use it as moer than a place to find other links.

Wikipeida quotes all of its sources at the bottom of the page, you can redirect to those sources for everything that is stated as fact.

 

Someone else made a post elsewhere explaining why experience alone is useless, especially on a internet debate forum.

 

You may have experience and that's fine, but you may also have a difference experience then other people. You need to also be able to validate your experiences, not just say you have experience so your right.

 

I hope you understand what I am saying. It is not that having experience doesn't matter, is it that you need to have more then that since you can't prove such experience over a debate forum.

 

No offense intended either, just trying to explain that.

 

But your entire argument is that we should change society as this is the major reason behind the onset of depression and thus the overuse of meds....when not having the depression make an appearence is what should work? Yes?

 

It is an established FACT that many peoples depression is cause by an inbalance of serotonin in the brain. (and I could no doubt drag a million internet facts for this but wont) of course society and social issues can contribute to the onset of depression (i believe it is a combo of factors) and the treatment. To scan everyone's brain is impractical and to follow everyone's seratonin levels as much so. If it is SOCIETY and SOCIAL ISSUES then which ones? How much of an effect do they have on an individuals depression? Why do some people experience a horrible social life and experiences but do not report the same levels of depression as others?

 

You are trying to over-simplify the issue. I do not believe you will ever be able to remove medications from depression treatment. Even if we live in a Utopia there would still be depression because IT IS NOT THE SAME AS BEING DEPRESSED.

 

I understand where you are coming from but part of debate is willingness to concede a point. I don't think there are any right or wrong answers here....but lots of wrong assumptions. Depression and its treatment is complicated. It wasn't so long ago electric shock treatments was considered a perfectly valid way of treating depression. No doubt we will continue to learn better and more effective treatments. However to discount meds in total would be a mistake for the sufferers.