Few questions to modders about what is possible to mod in fallout 4

[culaio]

@TeamBacon

I know that Bethesda didnt put much effort into making non-major character actually good but I think that even if they made them better it would be unrelalistic to expect any dev to make dialogue on that level, dialogue for non-major characters is generally simpler, making dialogue for major character on level you mentioned actually makes dialogue for non-major characters look worse, this is probably reason why we have so little interactions with non-major characters, they probably dont want us to see how big difference there would be in dialogue between major and non-major character, either we would have longer more realistic dialogue with major characters and short realisitc dialogue for non-major character or we would have longer more realistic dialogue for major-characters and longer less realistic dialogue for non-major characters.

 

Also I realized short while ago one major problem that 4 choice dialogue creates for modding: some mods change/add to dialogue of same NPC that exists already in game, for example as starter of quest or for example dialogue option to recruit that NPC as companion, Is there any way to overcome problem of multiple mods adding to dialogue of same NPC ?

[TeamBacon]

Your theory that having good main character dialogue means you shouldn't have non-major character dialogue because it will look bad in comparison, so let's just make it all bad...

 

That is just a very false and illogical theory.

 

Characters build on each other and they do not live in a bubble. You can grow a characters personality by having them interact with other stronger characters. I'm not saying Bethesda did this in Fallout 4, because they very rarely used this technique. But it is very successful in other games, and has worked great for me in my writing.

 

But honestly, I have modding that I need to get done... If would be happy to teach you more, but if you keep insisting on telling mod authors how bad we have it without ever actually trying to write stuff yourself so that you understand the design process, then I could type till my fingers fall off and you still wouldn't understand.

 

The simple fact is, the 4 choice system is not going to hold back any mod authors that are actually trying hard. If you think otherwise you are simply wrong.

 

 

 

As far as your second worry. Dialogue is done based on context, so if done the proper way there will not be any conflicts. If I want to use Hancock as a character in my mod, I would create a new context in which he displays new dialogue choices based on the needs of my mod. (the same way that he dispays different dialogue during the 'Big Dig' quest of 'Silver Shroud' quests as opposed to when he is your companion.) However, people will try to shortcut and there will be conflicts just like there is any time that two people mod the same object in any game. That is just the nature of adding mods. You can't expect perfect teamwork from people who work for free and have never met each other. We are not in fact a game studio.

 

 

 

Now I have to get back to making a mod so that you can play it and complain about it. Have a great day.

[culaio]

No I was just speculating about reason why Bethesda make interaction with non-major character frequently non-existant, I didnt say that i was correct.

 

I do know about how AMAZING stuff modders can do, and I saw modders overcoming limitations of modding, like for example mentioned by me earlier skill/perk tree limitations of skyrim, I didn see few ways to overcome it, like for example one modder fused two of existing skill/perk tree's and put his own skill in place of one of them, it worked even though it wasnt perfect and created a lot of mod conflicts with mods affecting perks, another mod creator created his own "system" inside of game related to his skill, that let his skill level from use normal skills in game. So yeah great mod creators most of time can find a way to overcome problems but the problem is that the harder something is to overcome the less mod creators will try to do it, for example adding perks to fallout wasnt really that hard so many people did it but on the other hand trying to overcome limitations of skill limit in elder scroll was pretty hard(unless you didnt mind breaking many other mods), and if I am not mistaken only few guys(you could count them on fingers of one hand) were able to create skills with their own systems.

What I am trying to say that those limitations probably wont affect very experianced mod creators but will affect less experianced ones.It pisses me when game dev's created needless problems for modders, since it does affect less experianced modders.

 

By the way I did some minor modding of skyrim before but that was mostly to fix mod that creator left broken.

 

Even though more experianced modders wont have problem with It, it will create problems for less experianced modders since I saw many mods for fallout and elder scrolls that started simply from new dialogue that NPC option had I saw examples of NPC have two or three new dialogue options from different mods, please dont tell me they should get better at modding, I saw examples of iless experianced modders quiting working on mod because something in game was needlesly overcomplicated by game creators

Edited May 13, 2016 by culaio

[TeamBacon]

I don't at all buy the idea that Bethesda, a videogame studio not a tool developer, should be designing their game around the concerns of what would be too considered difficult for entry level modders.

[culaio]

I don't at all buy the idea that Bethesda, a videogame studio not a tool developer, should be designing their game around the concerns of what would be too considered difficult for entry level modders.

 

True but what exactly they are good for ? In their games story is pretty bad, gameplay elements are more and more simplified, games are fillled with bugs, after so many negative changes their games become pretty much modding sandboxes, it reached point that no one expects anything more from their games(bad story, bugs and simplifed gameplay elements is something to be expected, but fallout 4 gone much further with simplification then I expected), most of PC players play game for mods and not for stuff Bethseda did. So if they aren't going to fix problems their games have, then at least they could not make stuff harder for modders, they should do oposite acutally, modding is pretty much only thing that keeps their games going. They should improve modding which is strength of their games,

 

I wont lie they did improved action elements in fallout 4 but at cost of RPG elements and roots of fallout games is RPG genre, so it was bad decision, they shouldnt try to bring new people to game at cost of old fans.

Edited May 14, 2016 by culaio

[TeamBacon]

 

I don't at all buy the idea that Bethesda, a videogame studio not a tool developer, should be designing their game around the concerns of what would be too considered difficult for entry level modders.

 

True but what exactly they are good for ? In their games story is pretty bad, gameplay elements are more and more simplified, games are fillled with bugs, after so many negative changes their games become pretty much modding sandboxes, it reached point that no one expects anything more from their games(bad story, bugs and simplifed gameplay elements is something to be expected, but fallout 4 gone much further with simplification then I expected), most of PC players play game for mods and not for stuff Bethseda did. So if they aren't going to fix problems their games have, then at least they could not make stuff harder for modders, they should do oposite acutally, modding is pretty much only thing that keeps their games going. They should improve modding which is strength of their games,

 

I wont lie they did improved action elements in fallout 4 but at cost of RPG elements and roots of fallout games is RPG genre, so it was bad decision, they shouldnt try to bring new people to game at cost of old fans.

 

 

This is so full of false statements I just don't have the energy to respond to it anymore...

 

It is debatable what the actual numbers are, but it is clear that the vast majority of people who bought Fallout 4 do not mod. Tens of millions of people love this game in its vanilla state.

 

Fallout 4 in its vanilla state is my favorite Bethesda game, and is up there on my list of favorite games to play in general.

 

Modding does give Bethesda a boost in sales, but it is just a bonus and not the core.

[culaio]

 

 

I don't at all buy the idea that Bethesda, a videogame studio not a tool developer, should be designing their game around the concerns of what would be too considered difficult for entry level modders.

 

True but what exactly they are good for ? In their games story is pretty bad, gameplay elements are more and more simplified, games are fillled with bugs, after so many negative changes their games become pretty much modding sandboxes, it reached point that no one expects anything more from their games(bad story, bugs and simplifed gameplay elements is something to be expected, but fallout 4 gone much further with simplification then I expected), most of PC players play game for mods and not for stuff Bethseda did. So if they aren't going to fix problems their games have, then at least they could not make stuff harder for modders, they should do oposite acutally, modding is pretty much only thing that keeps their games going. They should improve modding which is strength of their games,

 

I wont lie they did improved action elements in fallout 4 but at cost of RPG elements and roots of fallout games is RPG genre, so it was bad decision, they shouldnt try to bring new people to game at cost of old fans.

 

 

This is so full of false statements I just don't have the energy to respond to it anymore...

 

It is debatable what the actual numbers are, but it is clear that the vast majority of people who bought Fallout 4 do not mod. Tens of millions of people love this game in its vanilla state.

 

Fallout 4 in its vanilla state is my favorite Bethesda game, and is up there on my list of favorite games to play in general.

 

Modding does give Bethesda a boost in sales, but it is just a bonus and not the core.

 

 

Tell me what exactly makes it good ? as a shooter its pretty average(there is many shooters that are much better then it), as RPG its very bad(its even inferior to previous Bethseda RPG's) it doesnt deserve "RPG of the year" it got a DICE there indie RPG much better then it, Graphic isnt up to current graphical standards I know its not that important since there are games with old school graphic that are really great(I dont personally care about graphics), it has horrible pacing issues: power armor is much too soon, I didnt find any real side quest in 30 hours I played(I know there are side quests in game but you cant really find any of them early in game, fallout 4 lacks any quest hub at the beginning like both fallout 3 and new vegas had), game is far too easy on any difficulty other then survival(I play on difficulty I used in previous bethseda game and every fight in game is a joke without me putting even one point into combat perks, even 'boss' fight in castle was easy partially because of previously mentioned pacing issues, game gives us very early fatman, missile launchers, miniguns which made boss fight joke,especially since game gives us from the beginning drugs that buff us so much that boss dies before reaching shore).

Another problem is inconsistency/plot holes, for example we are parent who wants to find their child quickly..but then goes to build towns and do other stuff(its extremly immersion breaking), another example is power armor power source, its said in lore that power armor can function for 100 years non-stop on the power source and in game it doesnt last even fraction of it, yes the "corse" can be depleted but all of them in game being depleted...

And many more...

 

There is a lot of fans of previous fallout games that hope that next fallout game will be made by obsidan like new vegas was since most people agree new vegas was superior to fallout 4, hell there are people that believe that fallout 3 was better, fallout 4 simply gets boring very quickly.

Edited May 14, 2016 by culaio

[EmissaryOfWind]

 

 

 

I don't at all buy the idea that Bethesda, a videogame studio not a tool developer, should be designing their game around the concerns of what would be too considered difficult for entry level modders.

 

True but what exactly they are good for ? In their games story is pretty bad, gameplay elements are more and more simplified, games are fillled with bugs, after so many negative changes their games become pretty much modding sandboxes, it reached point that no one expects anything more from their games(bad story, bugs and simplifed gameplay elements is something to be expected, but fallout 4 gone much further with simplification then I expected), most of PC players play game for mods and not for stuff Bethseda did. So if they aren't going to fix problems their games have, then at least they could not make stuff harder for modders, they should do oposite acutally, modding is pretty much only thing that keeps their games going. They should improve modding which is strength of their games,

 

I wont lie they did improved action elements in fallout 4 but at cost of RPG elements and roots of fallout games is RPG genre, so it was bad decision, they shouldnt try to bring new people to game at cost of old fans.

 

 

This is so full of false statements I just don't have the energy to respond to it anymore...

 

It is debatable what the actual numbers are, but it is clear that the vast majority of people who bought Fallout 4 do not mod. Tens of millions of people love this game in its vanilla state.

 

Fallout 4 in its vanilla state is my favorite Bethesda game, and is up there on my list of favorite games to play in general.

 

Modding does give Bethesda a boost in sales, but it is just a bonus and not the core.

 

 

Tell me what exactly makes it good ? as a shooter its pretty average(there is many shooters that are much better then it), as RPG its very bad(its even inferior to previous Bethseda RPG's) it doesnt deserve "RPG of the year" it got a DICE there indie RPG much better then it, Graphic isnt up to current graphical standards I know its not that important since there are games with old school graphic that are really great(I dont personally care about graphics), it has horrible pacing issues: power armor is much too soon, I didnt find any real side quest in 30 hours I played(I know there are side quests in game but you cant really find any of them early in game, fallout 4 lacks any quest hub at the beginning like both fallout 3 and new vegas had), game is far too easy on any difficulty other then survival(I play on difficulty I used in previous bethseda game and every fight in game is a joke without me putting even one point into combat perks, even 'boss' fight in castle was easy partially because of previously mentioned pacing issues, game gives us very early fatman, missile launchers, miniguns which made boss fight joke,especially since game gives us from the beginning drugs that buff us so much that boss dies before reaching shore).

Another problem is inconsistency/plot holes, for example we are parent who wants to find their child quickly..but then goes to build towns and do other stuff(its extremly immersion breaking), another example is power armor power source, its said in lore that power armor can function for 100 years non-stop on the power source and in game it doesnt last even fraction of it, yes the "corse" can be depleted but all of them in game being depleted...

And many more...

 

There is a lot of fans of previous fallout games that hope that next fallout game will be made by obsidan like new vegas was since most people agree new vegas was superior to fallout 4, hell there are people that believe that fallout 3 was better, fallout 4 simply gets boring very quickly.

 

If that's really how you feel, you might consider playing another game.

[TeamBacon]

Well, luckily for Bethesda people like you are a very small fraction of the market.

 

You can't sustain a AAA game studio catering the the fan base that wants early 2000 era RPG games.

 

 

 

This conversation is over.

[culaio]

@EmissaryOfWind

But is it such bad thing to ask for fallout game made for fallout fans ? New vegas shown that it is possible to modernize fallout while keeping what fans loved about old games.

Why Bethesda named this game fallout if they arent making it for people who liked previous fallout games ? by giving game name of old game series they create certain expectations that if not fulfiled lead to disappointment of players.

 

@TeamBacon

You dont need to replay to this, I just want to say that its not small amount of people that believe so seeing how many negative reviews from normal players game gets everywhere(it has lowest score of all the bethesda style RPG's, even lower then fallout 3 that was disliked by fans of first fallout games), of course I disagree with people giving it 0/10 but this game also doesnt deserve 10/10 or 9/10, and even though people give it too low score, but most of players criticies same stuff about game that is actually correct(like how shallow gameplay is, or bad dialogue and so on, most of stuff that I mentioned before)

Yes many people buyed fallout 4 but many of those players expected to get game similar to previous fallout games but better(which means it got both new players and old fans) which they didnt get and probably wont buy next fallout game unless it will more similar to previous fallout games.

Edited May 14, 2016 by culaio