Few questions to modders about what is possible to mod in fallout 4

[TeamBacon]

@TeamBacon that's really interesting, as a writer myself I'd love to hear more about the way you write for a game.

 

Well, I am no expert or anything, just a failed indie game designer looking to use modding as a way to get back into things.

 

My friend Justin and I have spend much of the time since the Fallout 4 E3 trailer trying to study anything and everything we can about the good, bad, and ugly of interactive dialogue in videogames. Not being content with just saying, 'Well they did it this way in Fallout 2 back in 1998 so that must be the best we can do' or just doing what Bethesda has done, we decided to try games from all eras and all levels of interactivity.

 

Interactive dialogue in games has taken many forms over the years... All with things we can learn from them, both in what they did right and what they failed miserably at.

 

I am more concerned with how I can use the tools in Fallout 4, such as real time dialogue and quick to navigate dialogue wheel to create something that pushes the envelope. I'm not all that worried about, 'oh no! I can't do what I did in the past!'

 

But anyways, I can private message you some examples of what I am working on to see if you want to learn more about the theories behind my process. Without actually seeing my work, it is all just speculation, which only has limited value. *I'm still a bit rusty with the Creation Kit, but in a few weeks I should have some prototypes out*

[tartarsauce2]

 

While perk overhauls are great they cant help with what people want to add with new perk tree's/skills for example some people wanted to recreate in skyrim some skills from older elder scroll games like 'Athletics' which were trained by running and swiming(and it increased speed of those), or 'Acrobatics' which increase jumping height and decreased falling damage(and was trained by jumping...a LOT), and some people had ideas for completly new skills like mining that would either decrease time mining and/or increase how much ore you would get from mining. Many modders had great ideas for new perk tree's/skills that sadly couldnt be realized with limitations of skyrim.

 

ahh, well luckily in this game apparently someone's added a traits system, so a de facto additional "perks" system could probably also be implemented!

I kind of forgot they did

probably a bit clunky, but interesting none-the-less

http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/8802/?

 

you could always also do some sort of crafting system that just sees to it that a single thing yields certain enchantments

like cybernetic enhancements almost, give a bit of similar elements to those various things - make certain slots, and make them unswitchable... and you get particular character decisions

 

for skyrim, I'd imagine heavy armour for athletics, light for acrobatics, strength for mining

mysticism could be done with illusion (if I recall they had a relationship anyways) medical knowledge could be via alteration, and actual curing via restoration tree

 

and you just increase points cost in general and allow more points per level, while doing some selective creativity involving perk requirements stemming from other perks if at all possible... (although this one I'm not sure about being possible)

Edited May 12, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[llamaRCA]

 

I am more concerned with how I can use the tools in Fallout 4, such as real time dialogue and quick to navigate dialogue wheel to create something that pushes the envelope. I'm not all that worried about, 'oh no! I can't do what I did in the past!'

 

Most modders aren't running around fussing about how things aren't the way they were. We mostly hunker down with the new editor, figure out what it does and how it does it and then get to work. "Pushing the envelope" is standard operating procedure for modders.

 

Besides, it's not in our nature to like every, single part of the game, how it plays or the bits of the editor designed to build it. If we were content with those things we wouldn't be modding the game in the first place. Discontent is what drives most of us.

[TeamBacon]

 

 

I am more concerned with how I can use the tools in Fallout 4, such as real time dialogue and quick to navigate dialogue wheel to create something that pushes the envelope. I'm not all that worried about, 'oh no! I can't do what I did in the past!'

 

Most modders aren't running around fussing about how things aren't the way they were. We mostly hunker down with the new editor, figure out what it does and how it does it and then get to work. "Pushing the envelope" is standard operating procedure for modders.

 

Besides, it's not in our nature to like every, single part of the game, how it plays or the bits of the editor designed to build it. If we were content with those things we wouldn't be modding the game in the first place. Discontent is what drives most of us.

 

 

I would never accuse you of doing anything less than pushing the envelope. I'm familiar with your work.

 

It is Mr. Culaio that I was trying to educate a bit on how we work. I don't mean it as disrespect to him either, he just hasn't made mods before and doesn't quite understand the nature of what designers really do.

 

I was simply trying to infuse a bit of positive thinking into his day since he seems to be in a bit of a pessimistic mood about the future of modding.

[culaio]

@TeamBacon

To me reali dialogue would look as mix of both tree's,it would have variety of second tree with branching of first, the dialogue you are describing seems to be very 'goal-oriented'(talking with people to achieve certan goal) fitting mostly for quests, but is pretty bad for type of dialogue that would help you better understand other people,their background, location and its history, one of my biggest problems with fallout 4 dialogue is that it doesnt let you ask question about people, locations and what is happening in the world, you should be able to ask this question pretty much any character living in the game(with few exceptions), questions like that are thing that adds most variaty to dialogue, I hate that I can't in fallout 4 get to better understand world by asking people about it.

 

About skill checks: I dont think we will agree about this, fallout new vegas had much more variaty in skill checks then fallout 3 and 4(and old fallout games had also a LOT of them) and I played AMAZING mods that also had a lot of it, that were really loved by players(and made quests in fallout 3 and 4 look like horrible).

The thing is that unless you play very general character build you wont really see all the options at the same time, so having many ways to do things is a good thing.

To me its very immersion breaking if my character has certain skill/perks but game ignores them even though I am in situation where I should able to show off those skills/perks, I hate inconsistency like that

 

 

Truth to be told I am not very impressed with fallout 4 actually of all the bethesda style games I played(and I played every game they created since morrowind), of all the games they made,this is the only one that is so boring to me, I played every of their games for houndreds and houndreds of hours but I got bored of fallout 4 after 30 hours(half of which I spend looking for something interesting to do), I am not saying that it doesnt have any good parts, for example I LOVE how power armor works in this fallout game(being like small vehicle) and how you can modify weapon and armors(even though I expected slightly more like for example being able to mix parts of weapons to create complelty new weapons, like for example: mix revolver chamber with long barrel to create revolver rifle or revolver shotgun) but I cant stand how much worse they made RPG elements in this game(dialogue, quests, leveing, ability to interact with the world based on your character skills/perks), I am asking all those modding questions because I am wondering(and hoping) if modders can fix what bethesda ruined for me :(

Edited May 13, 2016 by culaio

[TeamBacon]

@TeamBacon

To me reali dialogue would look as mix of both tree's,it would have variety of second tree with branching of first, the dialogue you are describing seems to be very 'goal-oriented'(talking with people to achieve certan goal) fitting mostly for quests, but is pretty bad for type of dialogue that would help you better understand other people,their background, location and its history, one of my biggest problems with fallout 4 dialogue is that it doesnt let you ask question about people, locations and what is happening in the world, you should be able to ask this question pretty much any character living in the game(with few exceptions), questions like that are thing that adds most variaty to dialogue, I hate that I can't in fallout 4 get to better understand world by asking people about it.

 

Well, I can agree that if you do in fact like you conversations to pan out like a job interview or a bad first date, then I guess it would be inconvenient to only have 4 choices.

 

I however am not a fan of meeting an npc for the first time and then automatically going into question mode where you just ask them to tell you anything and everything about their life without any back and forth action going on in the conversation at all. It is unnatural and awkward for a total stranger to be asking all these questions of someone the just met.

 

Things should grow and expand over time spent with said character.

 

 

 

Lack of exposition in a plot has nothing to do with the 4 choice system being a problem. If you think the characters in Fallout 4 lack backstory, then that is a whole different conversation.

 

 

 

I am starting to get the feeling that you are just seeking out problems, and everything anyone says on the contrary you seek ways to have an issue with that.

 

What you say about skill checks basically comes down to you wanting more. Which doesn't make sense in the context of what we were talking about, because the proper way to use the 4 choice system in the end gives you much more chances to use different skill checks than just having them all stacked onto one choice. It also allows the dialogue to branch in a way that is unique to your characters particular role playing skills, as opposed to simply having multiple solutions that don't actually send you anywhere else in the conversation tree.

 

You really should try this stuff before judging it. Just give it a shot, try to write something this way. If you don't absolutely love it, then you can come back here and rub it in my face that I was wrong, but I very much doubt that.

 

If you put as much energy trying to write with the dialogue system as you do trying to dismiss it, I bet you would be well on your way to being a successful mod author.

[culaio]

@TeamBacon

Of course no one will answer your questions at very beginning of converstation but generally after small talk they will be fine with asnwering your questions especialy after they see that you have no idea what is happening around, which is to be expect when you wake up in completly different world, also maybe its not the most realistic that most people would answer your questions but thats how dialoues worked in most RPG's to this point and thats the type of dialogues I like in games, I like finding about world from NPC's I like hearing about their background from them and I like hearing their opinions about stuff around them and other people.

Yes your dialogue system is more realistic and its type of dialogue showing up newer RPG type games like mass effect, but problem with this type of dialogue is that even though it lets get to know some people in detail in realistic way, its not something that can be used with every NPC, especially if game has a lot of NPC's so you get to know certain group of people but in return you barely get to interact with or to know(or not at all) other NPC's because of that you dont care about other NPC's, they dont even try to feel like real people(the fact that they frequently dont even have name's make's it worse).

So even though previous dialogue was less realistic, I still cared more about random NPC's in that dialogue system then in current one(of course in retun I care more about few selected characters that are important to story), since I could interact with pretty much everyone , even though many of them had to say only few lines or could ask them about stuff I asked them before, It simply is more immersive to me if NPC's always have something to say to me, even if that was something I heard before.

 

I am starting to get the feeling that you can's accept that some people simply like more variety in dialogue, to some people something like this makes interacting with people and objects in the world more immersive.

 

In different games I like different things, I never said I hate your type of dialogue but I like bethesda fallout and elder scroll games for freedom to interact with the world how I want, that was always strong point in bethesda fallout/elder scroll games,: extremly interactive world, those games never had depth of other plot focused RPG's but they didnt have to be enjoyable, I also like mass effect and games like witcher that have more depth and realism but when I want to play games like that I play them instead of bethseda games since they are much better at this then bethesda games but in return I wont play them when I want to play games with freedom of interactions..

Edited May 13, 2016 by culaio

[tartarsauce2]

contextual stuff, I mean, if there's something crazy going on in the background and you go up to them and are like "what's with that?"
then the context is pretty clear
an example would be if you could strike up a dialogue after a certain incident in diamond city... (where they don't talk to you but say something special)

[TeamBacon]

You are getting two totally separate things mixed together.

 

You are blaming the fact that Bethesda chose not to invest as much time into non-major npcs on the 4 choice dialogue system. That is like blaming the guy that painted my car for me getting a flat tire.

 

Whether Bethesda should have spent more time on the main quest, exploration, major companion side stories, or dialogue for the citizens of the Commonwealth is all debatable depending on what you are looking for in a game. I can't say that there is a right or wrong answer anywhere in there, because it is all up to the opinion of the individual players.

 

However, this has nothing to do with the 4 choice dialogue system, and you could easily have townspeople telling you about their past, present, and future without using more than 4 choices. Hell, there was a 'walking simulator' game a year or two ago that left me feeling far more connected to the minor characters I met along the way then any other game I have ever played, and most of the time it only had 2 or 3 choices.

 

We can ever go back to a game I used to play when I was in elementary school called Harvest Moon 64. I am almost certain that Piper alone has 4x more lines of dialogue than that entire game. When you talked to the people in that game you only got choices maybe 2%-3% of the time, and even then it was just 2 choices. But I felt more invested into those npcs than anyone in all of Fallout New Vegas or Fallout 4.

 

It is stuff like this that inspires me to mod. I am trying to create a feeling of community through the characters I create, a sense that the player has someplace they belong and characters they want to invest in.

 

In this case I agree with you. I just don't need more than 3 choices to do it.

 

*and my characters tell a backstory going back 100+ years... there are three levels of backstory to my characters; their personal stories, the story of how the generation before them journeyed to the Commonwealth, and the story of 4 generations back that is basically Fallout Tactics. So basically if you converse with the characters in my mod, they will spoil every last detail about the plot of Fallout Tactics, so be warned... It is all intricately woven through 12 characters that all have a different perspective and thus have a little bit different stuff to tell you to complete the story as a whole*

[TeamBacon]

contextual stuff, I mean, if there's something crazy going on in the background and you go up to them and are like "what's with that?"

then the context is pretty clear

an example would be if you could strike up a dialogue after a certain incident in diamond city... (where they don't talk to you but say something special)

 

But you don't need 12 dialogue options to do that.

 

I am all in support of using dialogue choices to ask questions, I just think there is a limit to how many you should use, and 4 seems like a very appropriate limit.

 

Otherwise you break the pacing of the game by having too much sitting a listening all at once.

 

But in the real world, people would not be annoyed if you walked up to them and asked them 2 questions. Ask them 7 or 8 and they will start to get annoyed.