Kids or No Kids?

[Saraane]

I'm also not bitter or jealous of those who can or do have kids. I don't think not having kids and leaving a child in need to suffer are even remotely the same thing. Seriously, it's a low blow to accuse us non-breeding folks of being likely to do that.

 

That's the thing. They're not the same thing. I never, ever accused anyone of such. I know there are a lot of people out there that have/would but I would not accuse anyone directly of it unless I SAW them do it... nor would I imply the same. I was TRYING to find some common ground that Redhead and I could agree on but she was so keyed up she didn't see that. I just wish this forum had an ignore this person button.

 

I will apologize for the jealously (did a little of my own inferring there, I guess.) comment but the bitter (and NOT because of children) comment I will not recant. SOMEthing has to be going on for her to react like that. One of my friends has given me and some others permission to call her out if we see her acting horribly bitter. She has a lot to be bitter about but knows that she won't get what she is looking for in life if all she does is vents. I do sympathize with Redhead on the subject of her mother though.

 

I guess having a child is even more important to me because the last two children born in my family were lost. Parker, an almost one year old little boy was accidentally drowned in the bathtub as his mother was strung out on drugs. Eli, who died even younger died of sids. The father of Eli was the mother of Parker's brother. He had put the baby down for a nap, came back to check on him and...

I guess I'm somewhat afraid for when I have my own baby if it will live or not.

 

I came on here to state my excitement about possibly having a child soon, I was careful to state that these were things that were personal to me, (I believe, I feel) and (the being a parent being the biggest, most painful and most rewarding responsibility things was a quote BTW. I just forgot the quotation marks. But it is something that I, personally, believe.) then I just get attacked and accused of inferring things that I did NOT infer!

 

People that choose not to/can't be parents are no lesser than anyone else! No one is! Yes, they don't experience one of life's possible joys but I will never (hopefully) know what the "single life" is like. I moved from my parents to my husband's home. It's the same difference! So you don't/can't make a little person with half your DNA, so what!

 

It's not the be all and end all. I plan for it to be an important part of MY life but I have a heart for children. Redhead has a heart for grown-ups. FINE.

 

Now, if I've cleared that up can we PLEASE just move on?

[ginnyfizz]

 

One of my friends has given me and some others permission to call her out if we see her acting horribly bitter.

 

WOW. How brave of you guys. No names of the friend and other members of your team? And you haven't even noticed that there were others who found the whole thing offensive. Oh, and I do plenty more in life than vent, thanks.

 

Note once more, it is not the fact that others have or want children that I or any of them takes issue with, but the idea that having children is the ultimate goal, the main thing that makes your life complete.

[Lisnpuppy]

See as this topic is going nowhere...I think its time for a close.

 

Oh waiter!! *motions at a mod* Check, please?

[Maigrets]

View PostSaraane, on 09 August 2011 - 12:26 PM, said:

 

One of my friends has given me and some others permission to call her out if we see her acting horribly bitter.

 

Permission from friends? That's an interesting concept on an open forum where anyone may post. Why do you need permission from others to speak your mind? You are also guilty of personal attack here towards another member in case you haven't realized it.

 

Also if you look in your profile settings you'll find options to block a particular person or persons so you don't see their posts. Only works if you're logged in of course. You could also not participate in any topic.

 

Personally, I found your accusations about bitterness and jealousy offensive even though you've recanted the jealousy part. I suffer neither of those emotions, yet I have been ostracized because of my childlessness. Work outings and other functions where children may be invited for example......people don't know what to do with the "one who has no kids" in a working or social environment. It's even worse when you're divorced and have no kids, as that's really against the norm. It's almost like I have a transmittable disease because I didn't have a partner or children to prove I was a viable and valued member of society.

 

Personally, I used to be bored senseless with the endless descriptions of the birth process, how long labour lasted and all the rest of the gory details every time the mothers got together. Once is OK, but not a refresher every time in case it wasn't emphasized enough that mother A had it worse than mother B like some kind of competition. Half the time the actual kids weren't even mentioned.

 

That's also a form of exclusion in a social setting, especially when there are other people, not only myself, who don't have kids and have other interests. Other topics of discussion usually die very quickly or people drift into groups of "with kids" and "without."

 

Not wanting kids or not being able to have them does not automatically make a person bitter. Ginnyfizz, or as you ignorantly call her Redhead, comes across as quite level headed and speaks as a realist rather than from supposition. Accusations of not caring for children because one doesn't have them or want them are baseless and actually cruel.

 

I lost both parents years ago, but for many years I worked in hospitals and nursing homes where the elderly very often suffered many types of dementia including Alzheimer's Disease. An eight hour working day can be difficult and emotionally draining. I can't imagine having that on a 24 hour basis even with respite no matter how much one loves their relative.

 

However, caring for the elderly which is not easy and doesn't have a great record in many areas in Western society is for another topic.

 

While caring for kids should be an imperative for society as a whole, and not necessarily only as breeding individuals, it should also work at both of the ends of the age spectrum. And in between for that matter.

 

View PostBlackBaron2, on 09 August 2011 - 09:43 AM, said:

I'm also not bitter or jealous of those who can or do have kids. I don't think not having kids and leaving a child in need to suffer are even remotely the same thing. Seriously, it's a low blow to accuse us non-breeding folks of being likely to do that.

 

Exactly and to the point.

 

See as this topic is going nowhere...I think its time for a close.

 

Oh waiter!! *motions at a mod* Check, please?

 

Lisnpuppy, that maybe so, but as long as people keep to a degree of civility we childless have a right to state our position as much as the next person. Moderators have posted in this discussion. :)

Edited August 9, 2011 by Maigrets

[Lisnpuppy]

Lisnpuppy, that maybe so, but as long as people keep to a degree of civility we childless have a right to state our position as much as the next person. Moderators have posted in this discussion. :)

 

 

While I won't argue that with you...in most senses I would agree. However the original OPs topic has been abandoned I think...and thus that would be reason enough to close or at least a mod get it back on track. The fact that the same things are being said over and over also doesn't lend well to the furthering of this topic.

 

Edit: Though I dont see what the childless have to do with it. II didn't request a close to support or not any side of this one....it just happened to be when I got around to deciding it. *raises brow*

 

I have a right to bring the mods attention to the topic which I have. I have not told anyone not to post or in what manner to post. The mods can decide to close it or not. *shrug*

[Maigrets]

Lisnpuppy, that maybe so, but as long as people keep to a degree of civility we childless have a right to state our position as much as the next person. Moderators have posted in this discussion. :)

 

 

While I won't argue that with you...in most senses I would agree. However the original OPs topic has been abandoned I think...and thus that would be reason enough to close or at least a mod get it back on track. The fact that the same things are being said over and over also doesn't lend well to the furthering of this topic.

 

Edit: Though I dont see what the childless have to do with it. II didn't request a close to support or not any side of this one....it just happened to be when I got around to deciding it. *raises brow*

 

I have a right to bring the mods attention to the topic which I have. I have not told anyone not to post or in what manner to post. The mods can decide to close it or not. *shrug*

 

Of course you have the right to report it. As with many other topics in this so called Debate area though it would be nice if people did stay on topic instead of going off course and getting uptight which eventually snowballs into threads being locked. I don't know why I bothered coming back.

 

The childless comment was because the topic is about people's choice regarding kids or no kids and people without children, in my opinion, are being looked down on even in this thread. It's like being in another minority group.

[Lisnpuppy]

I can't answer for others but I don't think my previous and hopefully on topic post came across that way. *grin*

 

I apologize if I misunderstood your intent Maigrets, but it seemed as if you were saying that I wanted to shut it down so that you and others couldn't state your opinion. Which I would hope that you and possibly Ginny would know I am not like that. If I want to tell someone something...I will tell them.

 

However I often misconstrue....reason I like there telephone more than this new fangled interwebs.

 

My point though is that it now appears to me...from the outside...that the post are merely back and forth regarding who has slighted whom.

 

Anyway....I also have nothing else constructive to say here...so good day everyone.

[myrmaad]

Well it is being in a minority group, Maigrets.

 

I have two family members, one on my husband's side of the family and one on my side of the family who have referred to me as "selfish" when I didn't bear my children, knowing full well I had already raised his child from the age of two to 18 and that I had miscarried through no fault of my own (and how painful that is). But I'm the "selfish" one in this scenario?

 

A LHammonds has often noted when showing people out the door, people who call names are usually projecting.

 

The fact is I have been acutely aware that society, whether I like it or not, has relegated me along with every other woman who does not bear children, to the 'spinster class' to be regarded with sadness, curiosity, trepidation, skepticism, and downright distrust.

 

Bachelors who don't have children are similarly maligned.

 

From a moderators standpoint, I don't think it's fair to close this topic, and we do allow the debates section to heat up, because none of us likes to deal with it, and if you can't stand the heat you have the choice to stay out of the kitchen.

 

I think people have gotten heated here, and that they have had difficulty expressing their opinions because this is a very emotional topic.

 

I had a full life and I've loved many children but the truth is, this last child is the first one I've raised from the day she came home from the hospital and into my arms, and I've loved passionately in my life, but never like this. It is a big deal to have a child, and some people who have them don't seem to appreciate that, but just because you don't have them doesn't exclude you from realizing that. The most generous thing sometimes is to make the most stoic decision: remember Solomon.

[ginnyfizz]

Very well said and admirably expressed, Myrmaad. I will always respect and hold in the highest regard those who bring up children in a loving environment, and never will you hear me say that it is NOT an achievement to be proud of. After all, my love and care for my Mum is born out of the way that SHE raised ME.

 

But you have also recognized, Myrmaad, that the attitudes of society can be very hard to bear "The fact is I have been acutely aware that society, whether I like it or not, has relegated me along with every other woman who does not bear children, to the 'spinster class' to be regarded with sadness, curiosity, trepidation, skepticism, and downright distrust. " puts it in a nutshell. And of course, you also recognize that males can be made to feel the same too.

[Maigrets]

I can't answer for others but I don't think my previous and hopefully on topic post came across that way. *grin*

 

I apologize if I misunderstood your intent Maigrets, but it seemed as if you were saying that I wanted to shut it down so that you and others couldn't state your opinion. Which I would hope that you and possibly Ginny would know I am not like that. If I want to tell someone something...I will tell them.

 

However I often misconstrue....reason I like there telephone more than this new fangled interwebs.

 

My point though is that it now appears to me...from the outside...that the post are merely back and forth regarding who has slighted whom.

 

Anyway....I also have nothing else constructive to say here...so good day everyone.

 

 

No, it's all cool as far as I'm concerned and I know what you meant. :) That's why I love emoticons...there should be one for me when I put my foot in it and don't always say what I want in the way I mean it to sound. :rolleyes:

 

 

@ myrmaad and all

 

Back in 1993 I took a long break from my job for stress and other reasons. I did a few courses in child care and applied for a Govt job as a child home carer (Family Day Care) for working people who needed after school care for their kids, mother's who returned to work and needed baby care and other things along those lines.

 

I passed all the requirements and police checks, did the extra courses and would have got the job except I was, and am still living in a rented house and there were a number of changes, including structural inside and out in the yard, that would have had to be made to the house to make it safe as per the guidelines for other people's children to be allowed to be here.

 

Things like childproof cupboard door handles, higher shelves, safer outdoor fencing....a lot of common sense things I can't remember now, but I would bet are not part of many homes with children. The trouble is the Govt can't police things like that as much as it should be in a lot of cases. The child care protection agency is so understaffed even more serious things get by them, let alone whether or not people have their detergents locked away out of reach.

 

I went back to nursing anyway as it was a big part of my life and despite the stress I missed it. To tell you the truth I was glad I didn't get the child care job in the end because it scared the heck out of me. Being responsible for other people's children in my home when I could potentially be sued for any little thing, not to mention if a child was sick or was injured somehow and any number of other problems. I would have been living on my nerves.... :wacko: At least working in a hospital there's immediate backup if things go wrong.

 

Besides that the pay for such responsibility was, and still is pathetic and way below the cost of living index. It's more a job for people with a working partner or other source of main income, because you can't live on it after tax and medicare and other deductions, even working dawn to dusk, which is often the case in home child care.

 

I eventually settled for occasionally baby sitting and caring for my two nieces on my days off when my brother, who is a single parent and works long hours, needed a break. They are both now grown up and finishing at University and are wonderful, independent young ladies.