Kids or No Kids?

[ginnyfizz]

Just idle curiosity but how did a thread about whether or not to have little ones become about the social validity of being gay?

 

Some of us are questioning the smug, patronising or downright insulting attitudes that are being exhibited towards those of us who either cannot or choose not to have children, and take extreme exception to assertions that having kids is the be all and end all.

[Saraane]

I know, Marharth.

 

It would help if those making the sweeping statements gave any acknowledgment that they realized how crass their remarks have been. Since they haven't, I have to conclude that they really do think that the childless are lesser being.

 

I don't appreciate that.

 

And I didn't mean "being a parent" as in popping out a kid and letting it end up in jail. I MEANT "parenting the child" and yes, even the childless can do that. Being a mentor, showing a hurting kid that some adults out there really do care. I meant walking that tightrope between turning out a shivering little ball of human fear and a hellion headed for trouble. ANYone can make a difference in a child's life. I volunteered for years with children and got one girl, in particular, out of an abusive situation. She's just about to graduate high school now and I consider her, my kid.

 

There are others I could mention.

 

And I may end up not having a child of my own. My husband's family carries a deadly birth disease, I'm getting tested to see if I"m a carrier also and if I am... we're adopting.

 

Someone who can't/won't have children is by no means "lesser". Someone not willing to help out a kid and try and protect/mentor a kid that you see is in trouble however...

 

The jury is out on that one.

[ginnyfizz]

Oh, you don't appreciate that? Well now you know how it feels.

 

And STILL you are defining a worthwhile person as a person who is involved in youth work. I guess that means that people like me, who have chosen to mentor vulnerable adults, still fail the human being test. Do try and widen your tunnel vision. Where I come from, it is not made easy for you to be a mentor for damaged kids. You have to have an Enhanced Criminal Records check and all kinds of obstructions are put in your way. Even if you have no record at all of child abuse, or any kind of violence or abuse, the moment something, however tiny, appears on the CRB check, you are stuffed as far as working with children is concerned. It's all a farce because as a number of high profile cases have shown, sometimes the qualified and checked people who DO get to be in charge sit on their hands and allow abuse to carry on.

 

Do try and be a little better informed before making your statements.

 

Actually yes, I DID pass my Enhanced CRB check with a totally clean record before you ask.

[marharth]

Maybe no one gets my point yet, but even if the only purpose of human live is to reproduce, wouldn't it also be a purpose to help other people live longer so they can further reproduce?

[ginnyfizz]

I am sure you're right in many ways marharth. But I find these smug assertions by others so crass and unfeeling and all they do is keep on thinking of more spurious reasons to try and support their argument.

 

Do you know why I would not volunteer at the moment to mentor a vulnerable child (although through various charitable church organisations I do sponsor two children, one in Africa and one in India)? It's because when I have done my day job as an employment advisor helping the most difficult of welfare cases to find work, I go home to care for my mother who has Alzheimers.

 

Sorry, but I do not accept that this is any less worthy or important a calling than caring for kids. Everything is child centric and the elderly are forgotten, I guess they just aren't cute. How we care for our elderly is a valuable lesson for those kids, but only if we do it properly. As a result of seeing mine and my sisters (his mother) devotion to the care of his Granny, my nephew has gained the lasting impression that elderly care is vital. And BTW he works as a care worker himself, with young people of his own age who have behavioural problems.

 

So yeah. Let's hope that you can start to realize that having children or caring for them does not make you any better than us social outcasts who don't. Nor is it the meaning of life.

[myrmaad]

I have never taken birth control. I have been married since I was 19. I never got pregnant until I was 29. (I'm a very late bloomer). When I did get pregnant, I had two ectopic pregnancies, the first one nearly killed me. My husband chose to have a vasectomy after my second ectopic pregnancy. I have always loved kids and have raised several. Obviously babymaking is not the end all and be all. And the babies I've raised would be worse off if I was not 1) in a position to be open and able to raise them which I would almost certainly not have been if I was raising my own babies, and 2) I think it would be the height of insensitivity and arrogance to assume that these children I have raised, and am raising, would be better off without me. I can assure that's not the case. (I've had to listen to that argument too, that I should have died, since an ectopic pregnancy results in the death of the fetus, without intervention it would have been the death of the fetus and the mother.)

[HeyYou]

I, for one, am pleased you are still around mrymaad. :D

 

Nah, folks that don't have kids, raise kids, or some other form of responsibility for the rearing of children.... are NOT less beings. Children are not the be-all, end-all of human life. Reproduction is not a womans sole purpose. Some folks choose not to have kids, other folks for whatever reason CAN'T have kids. That does not make them in any way, second class citizens.

 

Personally, I have one biological child, and several more that I lay claim to, by virtue of marriage, or, long association. (as the case may be.....) To those that I didn't personally bring into this world, they have ALL commented to me, that I have been more of a father, and 'life influence' than the sperm donors that got them into this life in the first place. Granted, I am not always the best example to follow....... but, for the most part, I would like to think that the kids I have influenced are better people for having had someone that actually cares about them, listens to them, and does not immediately discount what they say, because they are 'kids'. :D

 

On a side note, I am happy to offer help to anyone that I see that needs it. (broke down on the side of the road, be it a car, or a bicycle....) But, these days, stopping to offer help could possibly get you killed, or charged with sexual assault..... which I find really depressing, but, it still doesn't stop me from offering a hand. Age is irrelevant.

[Saraane]

Oh, you don't appreciate that? Well now you know how it feels.

 

And STILL you are defining a worthwhile person as a person who is involved in youth work. I guess that means that people like me, who have chosen to mentor vulnerable adults, still fail the human being test. Do try and widen your tunnel vision. Where I come from, it is not made easy for you to be a mentor for damaged kids. You have to have an Enhanced Criminal Records check and all kinds of obstructions are put in your way. Even if you have no record at all of child abuse, or any kind of violence or abuse, the moment something, however tiny, appears on the CRB check, you are stuffed as far as working with children is concerned. It's all a farce because as a number of high profile cases have shown, sometimes the qualified and checked people who DO get to be in charge sit on their hands and allow abuse to carry on.

 

Do try and be a little better informed before making your statements.

 

Actually yes, I DID pass my Enhanced CRB check with a totally clean record before you ask.

 

Take your bitterness and jealousy somewhere else because I don't care to hear it.

Someone does not have to be officially a child social worker to be a worthwhile person. (How you can help anyone with that bitter spirit of yours is beyond me.) I was helping through my local church. I was never certified and I was grandfathered in from having to have a background check when they started checking people that would have direct contact with kids. While I was doing all that, I also worked in a homeless mission for men and I value that work just as much as I value the work I did with those kids.

 

So quit putting words in my mouth.

 

The only people I would consider valueless are those who would overlook a child who they KNEW needed help and do NOTHING about it! I can't stand those people who would leave a kid crying, alone on the street without asking what was wrong!

 

Homeless people... I just carry crackers, water and a few toiletries with me. (If I can get ahold of gift certificates even better) because I know what most of them would do with the money - just go buy more of their vise. Regardless of the sexual predator fear, I choose to help kids out.

 

With the world the way it is, I can't help grown-ups terribly much, but I can help kids.

[ginnyfizz]

I have no bitterness and jealousy towards anyone, and it is not for YOU to say where I can and cannot post. You see, you're at it again. Implying that I might be jealous of people who can/do have kids. And if that's not what you were implying, then why use the word jealous? What gets me is the general patronising and condescending attitude that is exhibited to the childless by choice or otherwise, as if we are generally pitiable and must of course be jealous. Actually I am not jealous of what anyone else has and never have been, I have spent too much time losing everything I have ever possessed and in the process of that, realising that life goes on, I have survived, to worry about what others have, materially or otherwise. Moreover, now I have reached the stage in life where the next thing I face will potentially be having to give up any idea of a career to look after my mother. Did you even read the post where I mentioned she has Alzheimers? She is difficult and can be violent, but that is something I have to bear because she is my Mum and I love her. It will be especially difficult because my own health is precarious, but for me there is no question that if she needs me, I will be there. Without any shred of bitterness or regret. Or jealousy.

 

Try taking a leaf out of the book of posters like HeyYou, myrmaad, marharth and Maigrets, people with whom I differ greatly at times, but none of whom has descended into personal insults such as "(How you can help anyone with that bitter spirit of yours is beyond me.)" and all of whom have been generous enough to understand where the likes of me and BlackBaron2 are coming from.

[BlackBaron2]

I'm also not bitter or jealous of those who can or do have kids. I don't think not having kids and leaving a child in need to suffer are even remotely the same thing. Seriously, it's a low blow to accuse us non-breeding folks of being likely to do that.