Should people without health insurance, etc. be allowed to die?

[HeyYou]

So deadbeat citizens do deserve other peoples' money?

 

By the way, undocumented residents would be paying taxes if we went to a sales tax :)

 

 

They buy food. Which isn't taxed. They buy gasoline, which also doesn't get sales taxed. I have no desire to bump the price of everything else by 20% or more. That would kill the economy. Also, not everyone is uninsured by choice, nor are they unemployed by choice. To assume they are all deadbeats, is invalid. I will certainly grant that there ARE some deadbeats out there, but, they are the exception, rather than the rule.

The point is not what does or does not get taxed today (though gas certainly does, and some food does). The point is that you could arrange things so that immigrants pay more taxes, and immigrants surely buy more than just food and gas. But I guess that would cut the legs out from under your anti-illegal immigrant stance and you will have one less thing to blame for the evils in the world. Seems to me you are just scapegoating immigrants without much to base it on.

Healthcare costs and illegal immigration are two completely different issues that unfortunately exacerbate each other so they get lumped together. One could be solved without solving the other if there was a will for it.

 

And you also cleverly declined to say whether citizen deadbeats have the right to other peoples' money.

 

First, you are running under the premise that I agree that it is even your money to begin with. Once the government takes it in taxes, it isn't yours any more.

Exactly! Once it has been stolen it is no longer yours! That is the definition of stolen.

 

Otherwise, there are a great number of things that would not have happened, should the folks whose money it is (in your view) were left a choice in the matter of where it is spent. I do NOT agree with that stance. The government spends money how the government sees fit. (and that lends problems all its own..... topic for another thread though)

Again, I am not talking about how it is spent. I am talking about how it is attained!

 

How do you propose to identify the 'deadbeats'? That sounds a lot more like welfare reform to me. (which is something else that really needs to happen.....)

Someone who leeches off the hard work of others is a good definition.

Taking my money to give healthcare or anything else to someone who can't afford it is a good if imperfect example.

 

Your definition of 'stolen' isn't exactly accurate...... Stolen articles are still yours, just not in your possession any more. And your reasoning still presents the aspect of ALL taxes are theft.

 

By your definition, every CEO in the world is a deadbeat. They make their living off of the work of others. :D

[draconix]

@Quetzlsacatanango

You might get further with that "stolen" thing if you were to put it into context that federal income tax is unconstitutional, which is the law that we hold our governments to (or rather, should,) and that this is why it's stolen.

[Quetzlsacatanango]

That is *not* why it is stolen. It is stolen because if I don't pay, I am put into prison. It is taken by force, or the threat of force, without consent. That would be true no matter what the constitution says.

[HeyYou]

That is *not* why it is stolen. It is stolen because if I don't pay, I am put into prison. It is taken by force, or the threat of force, without consent. That would be true no matter what the constitution says.

 

And that would apply to ANY tax. Doesn't matter where it goes.

[Quetzlsacatanango]

Wrong!

It does not apply to a tax you consent to paying.

[HeyYou]

Wrong!

It does not apply to a tax you consent to paying.

 

LOLOLOLOL

 

So, it is only stolen if the spend it on something you disagree with?

 

One could argue, that you 'consent' to any tax you pay....... you pay sales tax, cause, if you didn't, the powers-that-be would be offended, and wanna have a chat with ya. You pay all the assorted taxes on gasoline, because that is the ONLY way you are going to get it, your only 'choice' there is, don't buy it. If you don't own a car, it's just not an issue, but, if you have to drive at all, well, yer stuck. The same goes for a great many other taxes, income tax is only one small aspect of a bigger game. I am sure you have looked at your pay stubs, and have seen deductions for all sorts of stuff that you simply are not left a choice on. So, you can pay said taxes, or, you can hide under a rock. (and you would prolly have to pay taxes on the dirt the rock sits on......) The choice is indeed yours.

 

Only two things are certain in this life. Death, and Taxes.

[Quetzlsacatanango]

No, no, no. I'm not sure why this is so hard to grasp. How it is spent is not the issue.

 

Tax dollars are stolen dollars if the taxpayer does not consent to the tax.

 

A sales tax is a consensual tax. There could be others. The fee you pay for vehicle registration is one. An income tax is non-consensual.

If I put a gun to your head and give you a choice, but if you choose a different way than I want I will shoot you, that is not a choice.

 

You still have not answered the question re- why sick people who can't afford care deserve other peoples' money. I think that is very telling.

[HeyYou]

No, no, no. I'm not sure why this is so hard to grasp. How it is spent is not the issue.

 

Tax dollars are stolen dollars if the taxpayer does not consent to the tax.

 

A sales tax is a consensual tax. There could be others. The fee you pay for vehicle registration is one. An income tax is non-consensual.

If I put a gun to your head and give you a choice, but if you choose a different way than I want I will shoot you, that is not a choice.

 

You still have not answered the question re- why sick people who can't afford care deserve other peoples' money. I think that is very telling.

 

You are splitting hairs. Do you pay the tax on your vehicle to get tags because you want to? Or, because, if you didn't pay the tax, you wouldn't have the tags, and therefore, couldn't drive your car? (at least, not legally...) Where does choice enter in to it?

 

I answered that question a long time ago. Read back thru the thread.

Edited September 15, 2011 by HeyYou

[Quetzlsacatanango]

Quote it for me, because I don't see it.

That is more the point of this thread. Not debating the definition of consent.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Quetzlsacatanango

[PowderdToastMan]

Just dug up these articles, they might be interesting in the debate:

 

Why does American health care cost so much?

 

Why does US health care cost so much?

 

Do doctors' salaries drive up health care costs?

 

In fact, if you search the site for these keywords, a lot of interesting articles will pop up:

 

Query New York Times: Why US health care costs so much?

 

Another study:

 

U.S. Health Care costs

 

Something that is noteworthy and reduces the effectiveness of attempts at controlling health care costs:

 

Influencing Doctors

 

As you can see, there is a lot more to it than simply the issue of illegal immigrants (I'm not saying that illegal immigration is not a problem, just not the ONLY problem).

 

Apparently, a lot of expenses could be saved, and that money could be spent to extend health care without increasing tax burden.

 

 

I pointed out the main problem a few posts back, illegal immigration is simply one reason insurance companies are charging more due to hospitals making them pick up the bill.