Melee Overhaul

[Geeves83]

I've had it with the melee in NV. Basically, I kinda want to create a super-badass ninja character...but it doesn't really matter. Even with a ridiculously low melee skill and strength, it seems you can just breeze through the game charging and whacking away at anything in your path. I have a few ideas in order to kind of change the melee system in NV. Some I've implemented, some I'm working on, and some I have no idea how to do (hence this thread).

 

1 - Reduced melee weapon damage - This is kind of a given. Rather than having ridiculously high damage, it'd be nice to have something else differentiating between ranged and melee. I do enjoy the 'damage relative to weapon skill' feature for the melee. However, I have it disabled in my game, since the same thing irritates me when concerning firearms. But, rather than just have high-damage melee weapons to make up for their lack of range in comparison to guns, we could attach some special effects.

 

2 - Passive defensive bonuses - Another thing that would make melee and unarmed more viable would be the ability to bolster defense (according to relevant skill) against attacking melee/unarmed npcs and creatures. This is partially accomplished in the vanilla game by allowing characters to block, but could also be added to by allowing passive 'always on' defensive benefits against other melee/unarmed attackers (or maybe even gun users, given a high-level perk or two... anyone remember the HtH Evade Perk from Fallout 2?). This does a few things. For one, it makes combat a bit more stat dependent and helps with roleplaying. And two, it also makes melee more tactical. If you are a strong melee character close to an enemy armed with a gun, you would have an advantage in melee combat as they would be defenseless, not only because they can't block, but also because any scripted defensive bonuses wouldn't apply. Likewise, if you are a strong melee character getting closed in on by several melee attackers that you could not stop quickly with your currently armed gun, it would make sense to switch to melee and allow your high skill to be a factor in your defense. This simulates the fact that someone armed with a firearm would not be able to physically defend himself from a blow as well as one armed with another melee weapon, or even bare, unarmed hands.

 

3 - Special melee effects - Pretty much what it says, giving a little diversity to the games melee weapons. When done through scripts attached to the weapons, what determines whether/how much of the effect is applied could depend on a bunch of factors; Attacker and defenders strength/endurance, BOTH the weapon skill of the attacker and the applicable weapon skill of the defender (melee if armed with melee, unarmed if unarmed, etc.).

 

A - Fatigue for blunt weapons - Exactly what it sounds like. Blunt weapons, though they cause less damage, will now cause fatigue damage based on many different variables. This mod does this very well by using scripts attached to individual weapons, even allowing for criticals, sneak attacks, and perks. Doing this also allows all sorts of variables to be thrown into the formula concerning how much fatigue damage is dealt.

B - Cutting/Bleeding effect for sharp weapons - Would work similar to above, except instead of applying fatigue damage, it applies an actor effect that makes the effected character take damage from bleeding over time. Once again, the chance to apply this could be based on any number of scripted variables.

 

These two effects would still keep melee weapons powerful, but reducing overall damage and relying on these effects as melee's primary advantage would make the whole system much more stat and skill dependent.

 

4 - Swinging weapons around increases fatigue - I can't believe fatigue was implemented as little as it was in the vanilla New Vegas. This is part of what makes melee so overpowered in the game; you can just pick up a decent melee weapon and swing away forever, cutting down everything you meet, while all npc's have a cool-down time associated with their attack animation. This would make melee more tactical (less wild swinging, more careful hits), and also make endurance useful (endurance determines how fast fatigue is replaced, and could also be applied to the formula in a script). The amount of fatigue lost could depend on tons of things... as a few examples; the attackers endurance/strength, whether it was a hit or a miss, whether it was blocked or successful, the weight of the weapon, the required strength of the weapon, the weapon skill of the attacker relative to the equipped weapon skill of the defender (unless a firearm... although that would be an interesting perk opportunity). As well, rather than just swinging, fatigue can be drained by defending against blows. This would make turtling a less viable option, once again forcing players to vary their tactics a bit. Who really feels threatened when someone charges them with a tire iron and you can just sit there holding the block button indefinitely with no worries. When fatigue reaches a pre-determined level (preferably above 0, since you don't want characters attacking until they literally collapse), the character can't attack or defend anymore. One thing I think would be really cool to implement is for every swing/block to drain fatigue relative to the difference between characters weapon skills. For example, if you had a high enough skill, or your opponent a low enough one, you could just sit there and block all of his oncoming blows more efficiently, with less fatigue to yourself, effectively outlasting him and waiting until he is too tired to both defend himself or strike back. This also makes characters who swing around wildly more open and vulnerable to attackers, especially those with fatigue-draining blunt weapons, since they would be already close to unconsciousness.

 

 

The only thing about implementing all of this stuff so far is that it's kind of messy. I think most of the things here can be done by applying a script to each individual melee/unarmed weapon. This is both time consuming (if you want to vary the script variable and effects by weapon), and horrible for compatibility with other mods.

 

It would also be great to be able to have a special melee/unarmed attack(s) that disarmed enemies or crippled certain limbs (to account for the painful lack of targeted melee), but I have no idea how to do either of those things.

 

Well, for those of you that have read this far, kudos for getting through all my ridiculous game mechanic nit-picking geek talk. The reason I'm posting this is because, while I know enough about scripting to be pretty sure most of this can be implemented, I'm not sure I know enough to actually do it. Would any script guru with a love of melee combat be interested in designing a rudimentary script that could do these things? I'm trying as of now, but it's going very slowly.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Geeves83

[billyro]

You have excellent points. The combat is still too similar to Oblivion's: meaning there is a lot of room for possible improvements.

 

1. The melee damage being too high: the only reason it's like this is to balance the gun vs melee ratio. Charging full speed at someone with a knife will likely end their life quickly. Guns, however can only be effective it you hit a vital area. I'd say the damage should not be decreased globally, but simply reduce the amount of damage done based on player skill. 10 melee skill should barely do any damage, but that doesn't mean a modded 100 skill melee player does the same damage as an unmodded 50 skill melee player. Skill level 50 should be the half way mark between default melee damage, instead of making every melee weapon do less damage.

 

2. Defense: I don't really understand what you are saying. Basically, you are saying that gun users shouldn't be able to defend, but melee users can? That's already in the game. You're suggesting that someone who currently wields a melee weapon gets a damage resistance bonus towards melee attacks? It should also be depended on the skill, as it's quite hard to defend against someone who is trying to knife you, no matter what type of weapon you currently hold. I personally would suggest, to make defence better for melee, that after you have attacked someone who has defended against your attack, you don't recoil. Basically, you can hack away for a long time at their defence, instead of hit-block-recoil-hit-block-recoil it would be hit-block-hit-block-hit-block. Much more fun, yet less tactical.

 

3. Special effects: I think that this would be a little overpowering, although realistic. Using melee weapons would be a big yes if you had to chop someone a few times and they started bleeding to death. Simply hack someone twice and move onto the next, they will die anyway. I'm not entirely sure about this one, however the increased chance of criticals would be a good start. After all, it's far easier to cripple someone with a sword then it is to with a pistol.

 

4. Fatigue: would the fatigue level be Action Points? No, AP would be ruined. So, you mean that a new variable takes the place of fatigue, and after checking the value, the new weapon speed overides the player's melee weapon? This would be alright, but maybe if it gradually changed, so you could swing really fast about 10 times in a row, but then the swing speed deteriorates very quickly, and you must wait a few seconds before you can hack away at full power again. This would be more balancing, but that heavily outnumbered close encounter goes flying out the window.

 

I'm just clarifying and putting my own ideas forward. Sadly, I can't mod this because I lack such advanced skills in the GECK. Oh well, perhaps some really talented modder will pass through here and think 'oh yeah, this is so juicy. I must make it now.'

 

By the way, my method of explaining things is very different. Sorry if you think my words are as useful to read as fdiuosadfjsajfodjqwekfnmdskancjxknvcuixs.

Edited September 18, 2011 by billyro

[Roviakin71]

I think there should be an option for players to switch their guns to melee as an emergency melee weapons. While not as effective as true melee weapons its still better than hitting something with your bare hands.

[Ryuukage0101]

Hardcore mode - ON?

Blunt melee weapons > low dmg, allways cripple body part it hits.
Sharp melee weapons > high critical rate ( and high critical dmg) but low average dmg

Guns : IMO guns should be superior in any way, firearms should have crazy dmg and high attack speed.
The "cons" for firearms should be that ammo and hardwere are hard to get by.
I like how there are mods that make guns and ammo uber-rare adds to the fallout feel.


And as for the "special moves", Is it possible to make so blunt weapons and sharp weapons have different moves?
Incase of yes
B-move > a move that deals huge amount of fatigue dmg.
S-move > a stab move that allways crits and gives a "bleed" effect.

lastly.. I hope my comment wasnt to confusion. Tryed to sum'up my thoughts :)

[dufake]

Melee will be a lot different if every hit staggers.: