Can I do this with two mods? (Simple goal, long explanation)

[evenstargw]

I see Red Rose Manor mentions optional COBL stuff. Are you using that, and if so, do you have COBL installed?

[miketheratguy]

AT LAST, I finally got it to undo my damage. AT LONG LAST!!!

 

I asked about this problem in a few places, wanting every possible suggestion I could find. Someone said that I could "start fresh" using Oblivion Mod Manager. I did what they instructed: I unzipped and made an OMOD of the Red Rose Manor, then installed it and tried to look at it in the CS. I had the same errors. They said that this might happen so I should uninstall and delete this new OMOD version of the plugin, and install it again. This time I made an OMOD of the RRM archive itself, rather than the folder. To my immense shock and joy, it WORKED. I looked at the long-lost RRM exterior, right back on the hill it was originally placed on, without an error message in sight. Then I got the hell out of there.

 

So here's where I stand. First of all, I recall the mod coming with a text document referring to optional flowers. I think that might be the COBL items mentioned (I'm not sure, as I saw only the 1 RRM esp and never had error messages before my own fiddling), but I don't have COBL installed.

 

Second, I'd still like to do what I originally intended to: Access Red Rose Manor and Glenvar Castle from the same general location. I won't do that until I'm advised how to do it without messing anything up. To do that, if you guys will continue to be patient with me for a little while, I need to explain my old attempts one more time and ask if you can help me understand what went wrong. I'm not going to repeat each of these attempts, but I really want to understand the errors they caused.

 

 

1: I loaded up the Glenvar Castle and Red Rose Manor plugins. I copied the single-cell interior of RRM and loaded up the GC main hall interior, where I connected the two. By that I mean I moved a door in GC then dragged the RRM interior- in full- into the open space where that door would lead. This made a hole in the wall where, ideally, playing GC would allow me to walk through and step right onto the RRM floor. I don't remember how I saved this but I do know that when I tested it in-game, Glenvar was fine and all the items from the RRM interior were in place, but the walls and floor of RRM were not. I walked through Glenvar's new wall hole and stepped into limbo, surrounded by floating RRM objects.

 

2: My other attempt was to leave the interiors alone and focus on exteriors. I again loaded up GC and RRM (clean copies) and simply dragged a highlight box around RRM's exterior building, then scrolled over to where GC sits and pasted it. I now had a redundant copy of RRM's exterior but that was okay as I was just testing ideas. I took a small while to settle this extra copy of RRM where it fit nicely in GC's courtyard. I then adjusted the doors of the original RRM building so that they'd be blank, and adjusted the doors of this extra copy of RRM, in its new location, to lead to RRM's interior. Everything looked right but when I play-tested it, this extra RRM wasn't in Glenvar's courtyard where I put it. Trees and benches that came with my RRM copy DID get placed, but the second manor exterior was completely missing.

 

 

My last attempt was, of course, the disastrous one. That's where I simply said "Hell with it" and tried to drag the RRM exterior directly and reposition it in its new place next to Glenvar. That's when it crashed.

 

 

Now that I have a clean, unaltered, unsaved copy of both mods, I'm ready to start over but I need help. Can someone help me understand why my first 2 attempts didn't work (or could ever have worked, presumably), as well as exactly what I need to do to try the final attempt again?

 

Here's what I want to do: Be able to play Glenvar Castle COMPLETELY AS IS, but have Red Rose Manor in play as well- with the only difference being that the exterior of Red Rose Manor would be in a new location, next to the castle, and retain normal interior access.

 

I'm sorry to be so long-winded and specific. I'm just trying to do things EXACTLY right this time, and understand every possible mistake I made before so I don't repeat them.

[evenstargw]

Does the exterior specifically have to move? If not, the simplest fix would be to load both mods into the CS and make neither of them active. Place a skingrad modular door, or for instance a mage portal in an interior of either mod and link those. Save this as a separate esp. Then you'll have to use tes4edit or Wrye bash to add both mods as masters to your new esp, and put it below those 2 mods in your load order. Similar to your original attempt, but with a load screen inbetween.

 

If you really have to move RRM, then don't drag it from one cell to another. I've done this before to just a few rocks and got a heap of warnings and errors on loading the mod later. Luckily I could trace them and clean the altered records from my mod but I won't be trying that again. A better solution would be to copy the important pieces and paste them in the desired locations. Make sure none of it is script related. Unlink the doors from the original RRM by unchecking the teleport box. Then delete the old exterior. If If anything comes up with a warning stating that reference is in use by such and such, take note of where it is used and replace the reference by one in your newly placed exterior. After that it should delete without warnings.

Then link the doors from the new exterior to the interior. Save it over the original RRM (be sure to keep a clean copy of it somewhere in case you mess something up). Don't rename the esp, or the BSA file will not be loaded and you get missing meshes/textures. If you have GC loaded up as well, be sure not to touch anything from that mod, because after saving, your esp will lose connection to GC and it won't know what those references are that you changed.

Finally you could try cleaning any unwanted changes left in the original cell from your mod.

[miketheratguy]

Actually last night while I was waiting, I decided to try this again on my own. It would have been more wise to await advice from you guys who know better, but knowing that I could now clear my damage with OBMM made me feel more safe to experiment. So here is specifically what I did:

 

1. Loaded both GC and RRM withOUT setting an active file. Moved the RRM exterior where I wanted it then wrote down the coordinates.

 

2. Restarted the CS and loaded RRM only, setting it as active. I selected the entirety of the RRM exterior (doors, mounted candles, light sources, markers, etc.) and tried to tell it to zap to my relocation coordinates, but this only worked on the building itself; none of the other stuff went with it (it stayed in a floating mass). While this sort of seemed logical, it made me wonder how everyone easily moves multiple objects without manually dragging them.

 

3. So I did- I reselected the mass of objects, raised it into the air so I could easily see everything, then manually dragged it through the sky until it crossed the (reasonably short) distance to its new location. I then made a few passes rotating it and lowering down onto the relocated exterior until it was all flush.

 

4. I then saved. In my data folder the items still show up as "EM Red Rose Manor" although they now interestingly have a little orange "lock" icon on them, I think except for the esp. When I load OBMM, the mod has the same name but now lists something like "new mod v.1" for the filename.

 

 

But that's it; the mod is basically working as I hoped it would- on its own it floats obnoxiously in a seemingly random spot in the wilderness, but with Glenvar activated as well the land is adjusted in such a way to perfectly accommodate it. I now have the castle proper (completely untouched by my edit) with Red Rose apparently functioning as normal right there in the courtyard- the quest to get the Manor seems to work just as it should. Somehow I messed up the markers though- When I first did a test play the marker was in its new spot next to Glenvar but now seems back in the Manor's original location, though all else seems normal.

 

 

I know this might not have been the best way to go about editing the mod (and in some cases goes directly against what you said, Evenstar) but I did this before I saw a response. Can anyone tell me if what I did was ill-advised and if so, why? I cannot find information this specific when I search around.

 

And I would like to try Bash- I hear about it relentlessly even though I'm perfectly satisfied (and confident) with OBMM- but it's been mentioned in relation to what I want to do here and it also seems to be able to rename generic / Crowded Road NPCs, which I GREATLY desire. However, when I went to install it the options and FAQ seemed incredibly complicated for me not to mention the fact that, despite its completed install, it immediately shuts down when I try to launch it. :(

Edited October 3, 2011 by miketheratguy

[Striker879]

Your experience with the marker sort of mirrors my own with the Aranmathi exterior edits (mine involved raising the exterior so a stairwell didn't have water at the bottom). Save games hold certain information, one of which is places and some things your character has found. In my case the location of the door into Aranmathi along with the entrance marker. In my long time character's save game the door and marker are still at the old elevation, even though in the CS they are shown at their new elevation. When I go there with a new character the door and marker are at the new elevation.

 

In my case everything works acceptably in my old character's save game so I've left it. To get it looking correctly would require a clean save, which would mean I'd need to clear out all the stuff I've dragged in there and placed in containers etc in-game. For me it wasn't worth the hassle, but in your case it's worth a try.

 

Exit the area of both mods and make a save (preferably go to an interior cell not related to either mod). Exit the game, and deactivate Red Rose Manor. Load your save and accept the prompt about that save requiring missing content. Save again without Red Rose active in your same interior spot. Exit the game, reactivate Red Rose Manor, load your save and go to the new location at Glenvar and see if all is well. If so take all the rope in your house and put it back into storage, and I'll be dropping by to return the borrowed rope.

[miketheratguy]

What you suggested sounded logical. So I loaded up my game that has RRM in the new spot but withe the marker in the old location. I went inside the IC lighthouse, saved the game. I exited and deactivated the mod through OBMM. I went back into the game, saved again, and exited. I reactivated the mod through OBMM. Loaded that save. It crashed mid-load. Tried again with a different save, crashed mid-load. Deleted this new save, loaded an older one. Red Rose Manor is now entirely back in its original location.

 

:wallbash:

 

 

EDIT: Remembered that I made a copy of the omod as well as all the Red Rose Manor files that were in my data directory after making my changes, not knowing which of them contained my modifications. Copied these backups over everything (omod as well as esp, bsa, etc.) and the Manor is back where I placed it again- this time with the map marker in the proper place.

 

Confused. So, very, confused.

Edited October 3, 2011 by miketheratguy

[Striker879]

Document, document, document!! The most boring tedious part of modding is your best friend. Should have seen me trying to remember all the changes I made to Personality Idles when I installed the author's latest version (losing all my homegrown edits of course). I now have a text file itemizing the edits. That is far more reliable than counting on that gray lump sitting on my shoulders when crunch time comes.

 

So I take it all is rosy in Red Rose Manor now?

[miketheratguy]

Lol here's where I stand- in this present save that I happen to be using right now, the mansion seems to be back where I placed it, including the marker (well sort of- I remember the marker hovering over the mansion in the CS, and I noticed that to enable ("find") the location in-game, I have to turn off clipping and fly up there. The mansion seems to be where I wanted it, but I forgot that this backup is from my first move- there are tons of little alterations and cleanups (adjusted height of busges and rocks, etc.) that are not apparent in this copy.

 

Thing is, I'm terrified to even touch the construction set now.

 

Through everyone's help, including yours, I'm in the role of someone who doesn't really know what he's doing but has been able to follow instructions and some trial and error to generally make what he wants to do happen. My problem is that I want to understand what I'm doing. I've looked through the first few pages of the CS wiki, and the basics make sense- but major changes such as what I just described seem random due to my confusion and I wish I could understand this better.

 

For example, here I have an omod file in my OBMM \ mods directory, with the name "Mike's Manor" (which I labeled it who knows when). I also have the Red Rose Manor bsa, esp, and readmes sitting in the data folder, named their original names. In which file are my modifications contained?

 

I'm looking at a RRM that's where I wanted it- that's the good part- but it needs visual cleaning, which isn't bad but a little time consuming. Now, if I were to turn on the CS and load the RRM mod that it's in my data directory, will it be the one I'm looking at, my modified one where I can fix the heights and remove some rocks like the first time? More importantly- once I'm DONE and the manor looks clean and nice and is where I want it- what do I make a copy of for future use? Do I copy the esp and bsa and package it into a new rar for myself? Do I just make a copy of the omod file?

 

Things seem to get changed and reset so easily that I'm afraid to change anything now.

[Striker879]

I hear ya and believe me, feel your pain. Kinda like looking at the birds nest your fishing reel has turned into when a cast goes wrong. Sometime you think "A sharp knife a a spool of new line would be easier than sorting out this". Is there a specific reason you're making an OMOD for Red Rose? Installation of all Emma's mods is as simple as copying two files and pasting into your game's Data folder. You activate in the game launcher and voila. If you want to get rid of the mod you deactivate in Data Files and delete or move the esp and bsa. Sorry, just my opinion.

 

The reason I thought the fishing analogy was appropriate is that sometimes it is best to go back to square one (or spool up a whole new spool of fishing line). In fishing line you get rid of all those spots the old line was weakened by the tight knots that are inevitable when untangling a birds nest ... in your case it will give you an opportunity to start fresh with your new found knowledge and know precisely where your Red Rose is at. I made a couple of starts on Aranmathi until I finally had my head around what I needed to do for the exterior edits (that was where I learned how much 'fun' landscaping can be). Because I started from a known good copy of Aranmathi that had my interior edits done, which I always kept a safe backup of outside my Oblivion install folder, going back and starting again was easy. While I was learning from the Wiki but not working through their tutorial (so I was always interpreting to fit my situation) it was nice to know I could try stuff and if it broke, oh well.

 

One of these days I'll get my old guy busy and clean out all the stuff I've dragged into Aranmathi from dungeon crawling and bandit bashing. Make a huge pile outside the cell Aranmathi sits in (or see how much I can stuff into the chests at my Bravil house) and do a clean save. One of these days.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Striker879

[miketheratguy]

Yes, the analogy is definitely apt!

 

I don't particularly care whether my alterations take the form of an omod or not, it's just that turning the original mod into one is the only thing that fixed my biggest problem. After I did the damage to Red Rose Manor way back at the beginning of all this, NOTHING would undo it- until finally, a couple nights ago, turning the mod into an omod then installing, removing, deleting, and reinstalling it did the trick. As such, it implied to me that removing an omod is more thorough than removing a "regular" mod.

 

I wouldn't mind going back to square one and starting the process over, but I would have to make sure that I can always uninstall damage to a mod, which is something that took me one week and half a dozen pages to accomplish the first time.

 

That's why I'd like to find out how to save what I've done in the form of a backup that I can always rely upon in the future. Presumably, all I need to do this is to take this esp I've modified, then package it together with the bsa and stick it on the shelf. After all, most mods are just the esp and maybe a bsa and readme. Should I decide to uninstall RRM and then reinstall my version again at a later date, it would logically work the way I modified it to. But then I think about how uninstalling and reinstalling this mod didn't cleanly wipe away edits to it, which was the problem in the first place- it took an omod version of the mod to "start clean".