The story in Lonesome Road

[marharth]

Right, so it still was the legion that caused all of the tribal mess.

[minngarm]

10mm has a lot of it right, but i would beg to differ on Ulysseys work with the white legs. It seamed to me more like he had a resentment for Graham, or at least knowledge of his survival, and thought that he would use his tribe to come back either after Caesar or to resume his rightful place in the Legion, with his own personal guard. As such he deceieved the White Legs into thinking they were earning a place in the legion by attacking the other tribes, using them not only to squash other resistance in the area but also weakening their own ranks in such conflicts so as not to be a threat. I suppose though the fulcrum of any theory on the white legs and Ulysseys can only be proven by the timeframe, which is not given.

 

Did he go before, or after The Divide, as anything after The Divide was his own agenda and not that of the Legion. Now we all have been assuming that the legion butchers every adult and takes the children. But Graham was taken as an adult, and his tribe left as they were. This alone suggests that Legion practice has and must infact vary from situation to situation. Then there are the merchants allowed to travel between colonys in the Legion territory, and the existance of those towns and cities. The Legion more than likely only butchers the adults of the most war-like tribes it encounters to insure submission, leaving the rest under rule to provide the logistics they need to operate.

 

Which then opens up all kinds of options for espionage.

[ModelV]

Now we all have been assuming that the legion butchers every adult and takes the children. But Graham was taken as an adult, and his tribe left as they were.

*Buzzer noise* Wrong.

Graham founded the Legion with Caesar and New Canaan has never been within Legion reach.

 

10mm has a lot of it right, but i would beg to differ on Ulysseys work with the white legs. It seamed to me more like he had a resentment for Graham, or at least knowledge of his survival, and thought that he would use his tribe to come back either after Caesar or to resume his rightful place in the Legion, with his own personal guard.

 

I hope your not suggesting that Ulysses wanted to become the new Caesar and all this with the White Legs was part of some plot to do it. Because thats kinda paranoid and delusional...

[Fallout10mm]

What happened to the Divide happened just after the First Battle of Hover Dam (after because Lanius became the leiget after Joshua failed there and the marked men patterned the Swords of the west and thier special helmets after him), and when Ulysses returned Ceazer sent him to go crush new cannan (and hopefully finish off joshua whom he still saw as a threat/reminder of his greatest loss), I think he found the Big MT after he left the white legs (maybe having something to do with thier braiding of hair to honor him reminding him of his tribe) and then after went back to the Divide again with his new knowledge (as he had to of come there after Christine fixed his holotape recorder and it wouldnt last long) .

[ModelV]

Ulysses has also been the Sierra Madre at one point. Probably just before the Big Empty.

[minngarm]

The Sierra Madre could be at any time, he knew of its existance and where it was, also was the one to send Elijah. So it could have been at any time, and bares little relevance to the overall plot as he found nothing of interest there. As for Graham founding the Legion with Caesar, no, go watch the opening scene for Honest Hearts again, the Legion existed long before Graham.

[Sepherose]

White legs were not a part of the legion, nor were they going to be. Ulysseys set them up to think they would earn it by destroying the New Canaanites.

God damn it i need to stop making a new game every damn time a new DLC comes out so i can play this stuff sooner.

 

Was Caesar involved or was he on his own? Dont explain if he was on his own.

 

If Caesar was involved then who is to say they wouldnt pull the same thing with the Enclave?

 

I know about both of them, and I knew how Legion conquered the tribes before New Vegas was ever even hinted at. Try reading the Van Buren Design docs, specifically the ones about Legion. It is possible. I never said it was likely.

 

I think i just won.

 

How precisely did you just win? You stated that wasn't possible. This simply is not true. If Caesar saw a use for one of them, then he might extend the offer, in exactly the same fashion he did to you. And to point a few other things out:

 

1. You use modern tech or advanced tech just like the Enclave. Also, the Legion does not abhor all tech, they use ballistic fists, thermic lances, and use peices of advanced armor in their own armor designs. It is modern medicine that they primarily have a problem with.

 

2. There is no difference to the base mindset of either faction: They are both xenophobic and believe everyone should fall in line with their "better way of life".

 

3. The average trader can go deeply into Legion territory unmolested, meaning traders have something pretty close to a free pass. This is referenced many, many times. Yes they may have to let the Legion know that they are trading in the territory, but still.

 

These are all things that make it fairly plausible that Enclave remnants could infiltrate the Legion.

[marharth]

What could a trader do to help destroy the legion though?

 

How exactly did the legion exist before Gharam and Ceaser? It says on the fallout wiki that Gharam founded it with Ceaser, so it would be impossible to say otherwise.

 

Gharam was also the first legate, it was all over the dialogue when referring to the battle of hoover dam. How exactly did you miss that?

[ModelV]

How the Legion was founded:

 

A group of Followers of the Apocalypse led by Edward Sallow and Bill Calhoun were sent east into Arizona to learn the language of the Tribes. They met up with a New Canaanite Missionary named Joshua Graham. They decided to hike into the grand canyon and talk to blackfoots but something went wrong and the Blackfoots decided they werent going to leave.At that time the Blackfoots were at war with 7 other tribes and after seeing the Blackfoots inadequacy in combat designed to use the knowledge he had to train the Blackfoot's in the art of war. he quickly impressed them so much that he made him their chief. At that point Edward now known as Caesar started conquering the other tribes using Joshua Graham as his general or Legate since he was able to translate orders to the tribe.

 

Bill Calhoun was sent back west to tell the followers what he was doing while the rest of the expedition were killed.

 

So basically you dont know the first thing about the Legion and are just a 1 dimensional thinker who decided to take what the NCR troopers said to be the absolute truth about the Legion and just see them as a large band of raiders who rape, pillage and crucify people for fun and thus you arent in a position to say if the Enclave could infiltrate the Legion or not.

 

 

@Sepherose

 

You said that the Enclave could easily infiltrate the Legion and that just isnt true. Now for counter points:

 

1. Those "pieces of advanced armor used in their armor" are scavenged steel plates from power armor. The material is sturdy thats all. Ballstic fists and thermic lances are not advanced technology a Ballistic fist is a knuckle mounted pressure plate rigged to a forearm mounted shotgun and a thermic lance is...well this:

A thermal lance, thermic lance, oxygen lance, or burning bar is a tool that burns iron in the presence of pressurized oxygen to create very high temperatures for cutting. It consists of a long iron tube packed with iron rods, sometimes mixed with aluminium or magnesium rods to increase the heat output. One end of the tube is placed in a holder and oxygen is fed through the tube.

 

Its simple technology not some advanced futuristic heating element.

 

 

2. The same board idea can be said about NCR but its not true. Enclave want genocide against anyone who isnt a pure human and want to bring back Pre-War America and Democracy which is what the NCR want(minus the genocide) which is the whole reason Caesar has such a Vendetta against the NCR he HATES Democracy and sees the NCR as just trying to resurrect the system that caused the great war to begin with. Caesar is just as Ideologically apposed to the Enclave as he is the NCR which he states ingame to be the whole reason for the war.

 

3. Answer marharth

[Sepherose]

How the Legion was founded:

 

A group of Followers of the Apocalypse led by Edward Sallow and Bill Calhoun were sent east into Arizona to learn the language of the Tribes. They met up with a New Canaanite Missionary named Joshua Graham. They decided to hike into the grand canyon and talk to blackfoots but something went wrong and the Blackfoots decided they werent going to leave.At that time the Blackfoots were at war with 7 other tribes and after seeing the Blackfoots inadequacy in combat designed to use the knowledge he had to train the Blackfoot's in the art of war. he quickly impressed them so much that he made him their chief. At that point Edward now known as Caesar started conquering the other tribes using Joshua Graham as his general or Legate since he was able to translate orders to the tribe.

 

Bill Calhoun was sent back west to tell the followers what he was doing while the rest of the expedition were killed.

 

So basically you dont know the first thing about the Legion and are just a 1 dimensional thinker who decided to take what the NCR troopers said to be the absolute truth about the Legion and just see them as a large band of raiders who rape, pillage and crucify people for fun and thus you arent in a position to say if the Enclave could infiltrate the Legion or not.

 

 

@Sepherose

 

You said that the Enclave could easily infiltrate the Legion and that just isnt true. Now for counter points:

 

1. Those "pieces of advanced armor used in their armor" are scavenged steel plates from power armor. The material is sturdy thats all. Ballstic fists and thermic lances are not advanced technology a Ballistic fist is a knuckle mounted pressure plate rigged to a forearm mounted shotgun and a thermic lance is...well this:

A thermal lance, thermic lance, oxygen lance, or burning bar is a tool that burns iron in the presence of pressurized oxygen to create very high temperatures for cutting. It consists of a long iron tube packed with iron rods, sometimes mixed with aluminium or magnesium rods to increase the heat output. One end of the tube is placed in a holder and oxygen is fed through the tube.

 

Its simple technology not some advanced futuristic heating element.

 

 

2. The same board idea can be said about NCR but its not true. Enclave want genocide against anyone who isnt a pure human and want to bring back Pre-War America and Democracy which is what the NCR want(minus the genocide) which is the whole reason Caesar has such a Vendetta against the NCR he HATES Democracy and sees the NCR as just trying to resurrect the system that caused the great war to begin with. Caesar is just as Ideologically apposed to the Enclave as he is the NCR which he states ingame to be the whole reason for the war.

 

3. Answer marharth

 

I never said that Graham wasn't a part of the founding of the Legion for that part, so if you have somehow come to the conclusion I did, you are wrong. As for a trader could help destroy the Legion? It's called ears. Everyone has them, and no matter what, someone is going to say something they shouldn't at various times around a trader. All they have to do is send that info along various channels. Your comment about the NCR's and the Enclave's specific goals do not fall into what I said: I was talking about base mindset, and no, the NCR do not fall under that banner fully. They are not nearly as xenophobic, which is half of the entire mindset of the two factions.

 

A ballistic fist is NOT a simple piece of tech, sorry. You can argue it all you want, but to design it in a way to not destroy the hand or wrist of the user would require advanced engineering, same with the thermic lance. These are not things you can put together at random in your garage and have them be safe for general use. Also an artillery gun is NOT simple, nor basic tech, and the Legion was more than happy to use one. A chainsaw powered by fusion batteries is not simple tech either, but the Legion uses them as well, and maintains them. These are all points against the Legion having an fanatical anti-tech mindset.

 

As for Caesar's ideological opposition to the NCR or Enclave, pure skill and usefulness can circumvent that. The mole the Legion has in the NCR that you have to stop from blowing up the train is a good example (he was part of the NCR before their contact with the Legion). Even though he is on the side of the Legion, it could have easily gone a different direction, like him telling the Legion he would help them but keeping the NCR informed. Exceptions are made, and your character is not the only one in existence, even at the time of the second battle for Hoover Dam.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Sepherose