ModelV Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 No it wouldnt Model, it would be even easier than with the NCR, legion mindset is rather narrow and easy to mimic Yes he did say that. Besides Horrigan was just crazy they never said anything about him being anymore physically fit then a normal trooper. People like Lanius, Ulysses, and the Courier are not common especially with the relatively soft living of an Enclave trooper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minngarm Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 (edited) My source isnt wikipedia my source is Dialogue with Joshua Graham, Caesar, and that one old ranger in camp golf(cant remember his name). And i carry the Old World flag not the Bull thank you very much. I just dont like people saying that the Legion are a bunch of idiotic raiders because thats simply not true. Dont underestimate your enemy. So in conclusion ive proved you dont know a thing about the Legion. And never overestimate them as well. Which is exactly what you are doing. I choose a middle ground: The Legion would be tough to infiltrate, and tougher to integrate into, but it is possible. There is literally no reason it wouldn't be possible considering that you get to witness multiple times where exceptions were made to the typical rule of how one becomes a legionnaire. Ulysses is a good example of this, as he was conscripted, meaning he was at the very least a teenager. As is Lanius, he was brought into the Legion AFTER the battle of Hoover damn, this is evident because Graham never knew him. Also, it is no secret that Lanius hates Caesar. It is mentioned in game at least a few times. Even though he hates him, he still respects him. But these are two high profile cases where someone who actually has reason to completely screw the Legion are knowingly put directly into a position where they could. These two characters do prove my point that under the right circumstances, the Legion could be fooled. Model your completely turning around from your own points earlier to try not to look like an ass, which you frankly are. First you assume to know my conception of the Legion, and of course assume incorrectly, while its not a far stretch to say the average soldier in the Legion is a mindless raider with a leash, you could also say the NCR soldiers are foolish farmers and townsmen given a gun and pushed to the front. As for the entire structure of either, well thats just not able to be generalized as no matter which side you look at the people vary greatly. As for your source being in game dialogue, well Ive played through the game several times and I dont recall the exact details as you mentioned being mentioned. Now This is not to say I've played the same spots over and over again, as I try to make each play different, so hey maybe I missed it, maybe it is there. But from what I've learned of the Legion I've stated here. Acting like a child because you have one more cookie than another however, invalidates your entire arguement simply on the fact that you cant act mature enough to carry a discussion. You did infact imply that you believed the Legion to be impervious to espionage, and you have gone on to imply that you believe the Enclave to be too weak to compare. Now if anything, history teaches us that espionage is not carried out by the simple minded but by those who are considered educated men, and those with the will and drive to see it through. Any of the examples given have been done in reallity and could just as easily be done in the fallout world. From the bribing of merchants, officers of the legion, to the infiltration of youths and children already pre conditioned to loyalty to the Enclave or any other branch could take place. Infact several of the Legions agents you mentioned have done the exact same thing, just in the reverse direction. Now I do not know if Lanius was brought in after the Dam or not, but just because Graham did not know him does not mean that he was not in the Legion beforehand. The Legion is vast, and there are many who serve Caesars will, and it is not hard to believe they would not be acquanted(sp) with each other. And finally, the soft living of an enclave trooper? If you think power armor is for the weak, than you know nothing of the concept thats for sure. It requires quite a bit of strength to weild, yes it does incorporate a powered exoskeleton to help ease your movements, but it still requires a more than just fit physice to operate. Not to mention the constant training day after day, education, weapons practice, combat practice, maintenance, physical training. Hell just assuming its the same as any other branch of the current military, if it be Navy, Marines, Army, Air Force, or Coast Guard, then you really need to rethink your stance on what you call weak. None of these have an easy living, and I doubt the Enclave is any different. Edited October 8, 2011 by minngarm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepherose Posted October 8, 2011 Author Share Posted October 8, 2011 No it wouldnt Model, it would be even easier than with the NCR, legion mindset is rather narrow and easy to mimic Yes he did say that. Besides Horrigan was just crazy they never said anything about him being anymore physically fit then a normal trooper. People like Lanius, Ulysses, and the Courier are not common especially with the relatively soft living of an Enclave trooper. Actually, about Horrigan: Horrigan is a mutant, but he had been a monster before his exposure to FEV in the military base, he had many psychological problems. It's important to note that Horrigan never considered himself a mutant; only the scientists at the Enclave would have considered him one, but they mostly referred to him as an "experiment", and even then, not to his face. Most soldiers considered Horrigan a walking nuke, something the tech boys built, and they were not generally aware of his mutant status. Most did consider him a freak. However, there were a few soldiers who wanted to accompany him on missions. That is from this page, and the main point in it is the first line. Lanius was looked at in a similar light. All of that can be confirmed by the game files from Fallout 1 if you would like to verify. The bottom line is that you are mistaken, not completely wrong, but mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModelV Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 In that quote their "monster" is referring to his psychological issues while Lanius is given examples of being extremely good in combat and very vicious thus being a "monster". Horrigan most likely just likes killing people for fun. But there is no way to prove either of us being correct. But we should also look at if a person fitting this criteria to be accepted into the Legion can carry out the Enclaves will effectively.Could Horrigan do it? Still ignoring the man who doesnt know enough about the Legion to be in this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepherose Posted October 8, 2011 Author Share Posted October 8, 2011 (edited) In that quote their "monster" is referring to his psychological issues while Lanius is given examples of being extremely good in combat and very vicious thus being a "monster". Horrigan most likely just likes killing people for fun. But there is no way to prove either of us being correct. But we should also look at if a person fitting this criteria to be accepted into the Legion can carry out the Enclaves will effectively.Could Horrigan do it? Still ignoring the man who doesnt know enough about the Legion to be in this discussion. Look, flippantly disregarding minngarm's posts is very rude. I have been reading his posts, and he knows more than you give credit for. As for Horrigan, play through Fallout 2 again. There are many references to him being a more than capable combatant even without his advanced equipment before he was mutated. As for his mental state possibly getting in the way of his ability to be loyal to the Enclave, it wouldn't. Even after completely losing it, he was still loyal to the Enclave chain of command. Edited October 8, 2011 by Sepherose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minngarm Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Your just fighting a losing battle Model, youve devolved from making valid points to just trying to fight a failing rearguard against anyone making even the slightest alteration to anything you post. Horrigan can be interepreted(sp) as either a monster in the same sense as we would all call hitler a monster for his acts of genocide, but he can also be viewed as one as he was chemically altered beyond the human norm. So we can all pick whichever one we like the best personally but keep in mind both of them are true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModelV Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 I thought my post made it clear that the argument with Horrigan was impossible to prove and is left to interpretation so no reason to argue about it. Ive proven Minngarm doesnt even know who founded the Legion and doesnt know enough about it to be part of this argument and he has disregarded my proof that Joshua Graham was there at the start of the Legion which includes the wiki itself and Dialogue that I just listened to today when i was playing through honest hearts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minngarm Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 (edited) Youve proven nothing but your own insecruity, grow up already. As for the dialogue, I have been playing honest hearts again, and I have no recollection of the details you stated. Which you ONLY cited as being part of a wiki beforehand. If anyone else can confirm if this information is in game, I will be far more likely to believe it than someone like you. Edited October 8, 2011 by minngarm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marharth Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 (edited) I can probably post a video of the dialogue. EDIT: Found it, this is it exactly. Skip to 6:30 Edited October 9, 2011 by marharth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minngarm Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 06:30 actually on that one you linked, I take it theres no audio? or did my sound card crap out lol. Ah that is near the end of HH right? I've only done the ending for it once, no wonder I didnt recall it, thanks for pointing it out Marharth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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