Occupy Wall Street

[grannywils]

Aurielius, while I will not deny that what you described with respect to your candidates' visits is totally unheard of. ( It has in fact actually happened to me, even out here in the boonies on a rare occasion) I will respectfully suggest that it is more the exception than the rule in a vast majority of neighborhoods.

 

I cannot argue with your point regarding the one focus movement. The successful ones have taken a long time to get off the ground, and they have been very narrowly focused. However, in my opinion this movement does have one underlying thesis. It is just a matter of whether or not the protesters can find their backsides with both hands (to coin a phrase) :ermm: . They want their government to listen to them and not to lobbyists and corporations and the people with the most money. It is fairly clear to me, and I think to many of those who would rather cry foul about their chaos and lack of discipline and rag tag methodology. I am still not certain that they will succeed in their attempts, but am willing to give them a chance.

 

And by the way, I meant no insult or offense by my question about representative democracy. Unfortunately, I believe that there are many Americans who feel disenfranchised. I also acknowledge that a majority do not even bother to vote. Nor do they pay much attention to what goes on in Washington until it hits them in the pocketbook. I am no Pollyanna about all of this. However, in spite of it I do vote, I do pay attention, and I too sometimes feel disenfranchised. I will stand up for these people, and do not believe that they are a flash mob, whether or not they succeed.

 

 

[ginnyfizz]

What is the problem here in terms of peoples' ability to understand what the protesters are protesting?[/size][/font]

 

With respect, that is uncalled for. The focus on the activities of the casino bankers, for whom you all know that I hold no brief, is

 

(a) One sided and hypocritical since it fails to address the issue of the, if you like left wing of corruption on the part of trade unions, or of corruption in public services, if they want to reform society, they should be addressing both, and then they would gain more credibility

(b) Diluted by the fact that there really does seem to be a mob mentality and a desire to organize events and spectaculars and scream "look at us", rather than gain real credibility. That tone comes across very much so in that last link I posted. They give the impression of being protestors for protestings sake.

 

Thus arises the confusion.

 

They surely are not of the calibre of the Civil Rights Movement, who had real drive and focus, and thus managed to (eventually) win hearts and minds with the sheer force and truth of their argument.

[marharth]

Banker corruption is much worse then public worker corruption. Bankers are not left or right wing and its not a left or right wing issue. Edited October 13, 2011 by marharth

[grannywils]

Ginny, I apologize for my tone. I did sound a bit sharp.

[HeyYou]

To be honest...American's are typically so politically apathetic that I am happy to see anyone on the street that isn't talking about the end of the world or burning books.

 

Now that right there is a cold hard truth. I completely agree with that statement.

 

Aurielius, while I will not deny that what you described with respect to your candidates' visits is totally unheard of. ( It has in fact actually happened to me, even out here in the boonies on a rare occasion) I will respectfully suggest that it is more the exception than the rule in a vast majority of neighborhoods.

 

I cannot argue with your point regarding the one focus movement. The successful ones have taken a long time to get off the ground, and they have been very narrowly focused. However, in my opinion this movement does have one underlying thesis. It is just a matter of whether or not the protesters can find their backsides with both hands (to coin a phrase) :ermm: . They want their government to listen to them and not to lobbyists and corporations and the people with the most money. It is fairly clear to me, and I think to many of those who would rather cry foul about their chaos and lack of discipline and rag tag methodology. I am still not certain that they will succeed in their attempts, but am willing to give them a chance.

 

And by the way, I meant no insult or offense by my question about representative democracy. Unfortunately, I believe that there are many Americans who feel disenfranchised. I also acknowledge that a majority do not even bother to vote. Nor do they pay much attention to what goes on in Washington until it hits them in the pocketbook. I am no Pollyanna about all of this. However, in spite of it I do vote, I do pay attention, and I too sometimes feel disenfranchised. I will stand up for these people, and do not believe that they are a flash mob, whether or not they succeed.

 

 

 

Most concerned about the second paragraph here..... Sure, they want campaign finance reform. REAL reform. Not just talking points and placebos that LOOK like they are doing something, but, in reality, changes nothing...... The main problem they are going to run in to is, the only folks that have the power to change what they see are the primary issues (and I agree that campaign finance, and lobbyists are indeed some serious issues.), are the same people that benefit the most from the system as it is. In making the changes the protesters are calling for, they would be removing MAJOR money contributors from their chain of wealth. (I.E. the folks that line their pockets......) They have zero motivation to do so, and millions, if not billions... of reasons NOT to. The protesters have little power to affect them, aside from some news stories. A bit of bad press is nothing new for a politician, and they will either ride it out, and get re-elected anyway, or not.... but, if they lose the election, they can always make millions as a lobbyist...... Unless, the rules change.

 

I would be greatly surprised if any substantial reforms come out of this. There just isn't the motivation for them to do so.

[grannywils]

But HeyYou, if you follow that logic, why bother to protest at all about anything. No one protests if everything is hunky dory. Look at the two successful protests mentioned earlier by Aurielius. Let's think about the civil rights movement for a moment. Do you think that when it all started that those with "the power" wanted to change the way things were? Don't you think that blacks in this country felt hopeless and helpless when they started that movement. Would you have said back then, "I would be greatly surprised if any substantial reforms come out of this. There just isn't the motivation for them to do so. "? I'll bet you would have. Nothing changes if you don't make the effort.

 

 

 

[HeyYou]

In the previous two examples that worked, you were not DIRECTLY influencing money flow into the pockets of those whom you expect to implement the changes. Making the proposed changes the protesters want, will effectively remove several major cash cows from politics. While I agree with the general need for such changes, I don't see the protest in and of itself accomplishing anything, BY ITSELF. It may serve to increase awareness of the problem, but, whether the american people actually stand up, and FORCE the government to make some changes, either by this particular popular movement getting MUCH larger.... or by voting, or, as a last resort, the "cartridge box"....... nothing is going to happen. Politicians make far to much money from things as they stand today. They are going to be extremely resistant to change here.

[grannywils]

Well, HY you make some valid points, and possibly you are correct. I'm also being reminded on another site that many of these protesters do not seem to have much knowledge of the government about which they are protesting. Maybe you and my other "enormously knowlegable source" are both right and this will come to naught. However, I still believe in standing up and being heard. I do wish there were some better informed spokespeople. And I also wish more of us would speak up at the ballot box, but we will just have to see where this takes us. Maybe at least it will get the attention of enough Americans so that they will start voting. Wouldn't that be novel???

[HeyYou]

Well, HY you make some valid points, and possibly you are correct. I'm also being reminded on another site that many of these protesters do not seem to have much knowledge of the government about which they are protesting. Maybe you and my other "enormously knowlegable source" are both right and this will come to naught. However, I still believe in standing up and being heard. I do wish there were some better informed spokespeople. And I also wish more of us would speak up at the ballot box, but we will just have to see where this takes us. Maybe at least it will get the attention of enough Americans so that they will start voting. Wouldn't that be novel???

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that the "spokespeople" were cherry picked from a bunch of interviews, and were chosen simply BECAUSE they WEREN'T knowledgeable....

[ginnyfizz]

Banker corruption is much worse then public worker corruption.

 

Oh REALLY? Wow. Just WOW. That is truly shocking that you think public workers on the take and union restrictive practices are not every bit as damaging as the activities of Wall Street.

We are DIRECTLY paying these public workers and you think that them abusing their position is not as serious?

Just an example that you would encounter here in the UK. Just try getting a job with a local council if you are not a known Socialist, or if you are a known Conservative. Legally, they are not allowed to discriminate. Practically speaking, everyone knows that they do. I have never even got one interview for a position with a local authority even when I have been suitably qualified. They aren't interested necessarily in getting the best people, just the ones with the correct political views. And since my family have been active Conservative Party members for generations, they visit the sins as it were. It happens to a fair few people, not just me.

 

For another example, look at the situation in the vaunted Socialist paradise of Sweden, I posted a link (not sure if it was in this thread or another)detailing how the trade unions have an effective stranglehold on negotiations and incredible amounts of legal protection and power. Here it is again;-

 

Sweden is more politically corrupt than you think

 

The situation in the US is not the same as that I know, but trade union corruption is pretty much taken for granted anywhere, and it is darned serious. As is public worker corruption.