Variable Level-to-Skill Scaling

[InuyashaFE]

What is min/maxing?

[hector530]

Still crossing my fingers on Enchanted Weapons and Armor being useful...

 

when werent they useful? so we could expect the same in skyrim.

[stormguy85]

when werent they useful? so we could expect the same in skyrim.

Conjuration was awesome in Morrowind if you abused it properly.

 

Firstly, the Conjured Bow was the highest damage bow in the game.

 

When you were "unarmored" in Morrowind you got a passive chance to dodge enemy attacks (based on your unarmored skill). Conjured armor was classified as "Unarmored". This meant that you got not only the defensive properties from the armor, but you also got the passive dodge of being unarmored. It also didn't limit your movement at all, so you were able to move extremely fast while wearing Conjured armor.

 

Top that off with the ability to make spells that summon an entire suit of conjured armor at once, and with a reasonable time span, and you have a really good combination.

 

I'd spend most of my time running around without any armor on at all: and using my summoned bow to shoot things from 30 feet up the air as I jump around like I was playing Starsiege: Tribes. But, if I wanted defense, I'd summon a full suit of armor and still maintain really high maneuverability (Summoned boots would replace my BoBS so my speed dropped to like 160 instead of 260 which was far more managable).

 

It was awesome. I totally miss my Morrowind character...

 

Then I installed Oblivion, made an exact copy (Stealth/Bow/Mace/Conjuration) and was completely disappointed in every possible sense of the word...

[hector530]

when werent they useful? so we could expect the same in skyrim.

Conjuration was awesome in Morrowind if you abused it properly.

 

Firstly, the Conjured Bow was the highest damage bow in the game.

 

When you were "unarmored" in Morrowind you got a passive chance to dodge enemy attacks (based on your unarmored skill). Conjured armor was classified as "Unarmored". This meant that you got not only the defensive properties from the armor, but you also got the passive dodge of being unarmored. It also didn't limit your movement at all, so you were able to move extremely fast while wearing Conjured armor.

 

Top that off with the ability to make spells that summon an entire suit of conjured armor at once, and with a reasonable time span, and you have a really good combination.

 

I'd spend most of my time running around without any armor on at all: and using my summoned bow to shoot things from 30 feet up the air as I jump around like I was playing Starsiege: Tribes. But, if I wanted defense, I'd summon a full suit of armor and still maintain really high maneuverability (Summoned boots would replace my BoBS so my speed dropped to like 160 instead of 260 which was far more managable).

 

It was awesome. I totally miss my Morrowind character...

 

Then I installed Oblivion, made an exact copy (Stealth/Bow/Mace/Conjuration) and was completely disappointed in every possible sense of the word...

 

i thought we talking about enchanting? also not all bound weapons are weak in oblivion bound longsword had the highest damage till the amber warhammer replaced it. i just used bound armor in oblivion to power level armorer lol.

[stormguy85]

i thought we talking about enchanting? also not all bound weapons are weak in oblivion bound longsword had the highest damage till the amber warhammer replaced it. i just used bound armor in oblivion to power level armorer lol.

Oh, I meant to say Conjuration... My bad.

[Seviche]

What is min/maxing?

"Min/ Maxing" is the art of taking as many disadvantages as possible in order to take as many advantages as possible. It started back in the days of pen and paper role playing games (such as Dungeons and Dragons) and was more of a mathematical way of taking advantage of the game's mechanics. Instead of creating flavorful characters using disadvantages, one used them to create super-powerful characters, of an extremly limited type. It involved taking disadvantages that wouldn't get in the way of your character's playstyle (such as; never going to use bows? Take the maximum penalty in using bows) to get extra points to use for the skills your character is going to use.

 

For example; if you were playing a cleric ( a character who uses heavy armor, blunt weapons, and magic), then you could very easily take disadvantages that would reduce your ability to use weapons and armor (such as bladed weapons, light armor, and the previously mentioned bows) that you would never use anyways. This would give you bonus points to put into the skills you would use. Sure, you're never going to win an archery contest, but why would you get involved in one in the first place? You're a cleric - you mash stuff and heal the survivors.

 

TL;DR - It is taking the maximum amount of disadvantages that would have the minimum effect on your character's actual performance to significantly increase the power of your character.

 

For Oblivion and other games that don't give a player points for being unable to do things well, min/ maxing means forcing your character to do things poorly, or in a very specific order, in order to take advantage of the game mechanics. This is probably the best description of one way to min/ max your Oblivion character. I have used this method and it's boring, slow, and makes you agonize over every trip to the local cave as every unintended skill-up is a waste of points. It is, in my opinion, a valid way to play. It is not my preferred style of play, but it is a valid way to play if you're a spreadsheet junkie.

 

Let's be honest; true min/ maxing is hard. Most of us use an easier method of min/maxing known as "Power Gaming." This is where you seek the easiest path to power that may or may not encourage you to pull off some stupid stunts that look like you're being dumb, yet make your character very powerful very quickly. An example for Oblivion would be "Playing the Minors," in which case all the skills you actually plan on using are not your major skills. Therefore, skill increases do not actually make you level up, thereby making the game not get harder as you get more powerful. This makes your character very powerful and lets you control the game difficulty from within the game. It also enables you to have a 100 blade skill at level 1... which is pretty darn powerful. It's actually very inefficient to do it that way (it has the potential to waste +60 or so in strength increases), but it's a perfect example of the differences between power gaming and min/maxing. A power game would get 100 blade skill for maximum carnage at level 1; a min/ maxer would use this method, but only to carefully increase the blade skill over many levels in order to take advantage of the maximum increase to their character's strength.

 

Any questions?

Edited October 12, 2011 by Seviche

[stormguy85]

Probably the most important thing about min/maxing in Oblivion was to make sure you always put a point into Luck, and then got +5 to two other skills. You also wanted to make sure that you maximized Endurance first as it scaled how much your health increased per level-up: so having the highest possible Endurance early on gave you more health later in the game.

 

I believe the ultimate setup was always to choose the Thief as your sign, and luck as your primary Attribute.

 

This meant very careful skill usage as you had to heavily manipulate exactly what skills you leveled up per character level. Early on you generally wanted +1 Luck, +5 Endurance, and +5 Strength: just so you'd get more health and have more carry weight early on. Even if you were playing a mage character, you were generally better off playing this style for the first 12-14 levels until you maxed Endurance and Strength and then swapping over to +1 Luck, +5 Intellect, and +5 Willpower etc...

 

But yeah, like Seviche said, it makes playing the game very specific and takes some of the fun out of the early levels. Obviously, you are rewarded with a character that can actually kill things fairly efficiently over level 30: which most "standard" ways of playing pretty much are terrible after level 20-24 due to the horrible scaling of Oblivion.

[jedimembrain]

min/maxing should always be a choice in RPGs .. if you wanna take your time with the technical details and make a super overpowered character thats great .. but oblivions leveling was so messed up that you HAD to use those tricks and keep tab on all your stats constantly .. took me right out of the game sometimes .. sent me into agro mode when I leveled something I didnt want to level too .. reloaded a lot to get that +5 ... Skyrim looks to fix that by making some skills a lesser priority than others right from the start .. more power to them .. you max stat people can still make your super heroes and I can still just play how I like.

[stormguy85]

min/maxing should always be a choice in RPGs .. if you wanna take your time with the technical details and make a super overpowered character thats great .. but oblivions leveling was so messed up that you HAD to use those tricks and keep tab on all your stats constantly .. took me right out of the game sometimes .. sent me into agro mode when I leveled something I didnt want to level too .. reloaded a lot to get that +5 ... Skyrim looks to fix that by making some skills a lesser priority than others right from the start .. more power to them .. you max stat people can still make your super heroes and I can still just play how I like.

That's why the variable leveling system is such a cool idea. You aren't forced to min/max just to kill stuff at high level: or if they dumb down the game min/max to make yourself a complete god. Now the ideal system is going to be to focus on one or two damage types, and then spread the love across all the other skills you plan to use: and you won't over-inflate yourself while doing it. Brilliant solution to the leveling problems of Morrowind and Oblivion.

[Seviche]

That's why the variable leveling system is such a cool idea. You aren't forced to min/max just to kill stuff at high level: or if they dumb down the game min/max to make yourself a complete god. Now the ideal system is going to be to focus on one or two damage types, and then spread the love across all the other skills you plan to use: and you won't over-inflate yourself while doing it. Brilliant solution to the leveling problems of Morrowind and Oblivion.

Absolutely. The new leveling system should -should- fix that problem. I can see it needing extensive tweaking (horay for the Nexus) because (just like Fallout:New Vegas) you could still feel like you're leveling too quickly. I actually prefer a slower leveling. It makes each level feel more awesome.

 

It also means that we'll have to find new ways to min/ max, but I think they saw us coming with the ability to save perk points.

 

Honestly though, I would have preferred a hybrid between Oblivion and Fallout with a twist for a leveling system. I would have liked experience for killing mobs, completing quests, and speech challenges, but when it comes time to level you can only put skill points into skills that you have actually used. Also, the amount of skill points that you can apply into raising valid skills is limited by the amount you used that skill since the last level-up. For example; you level by grinding through a tough dungeon for a quest. After you turn in the quest, you ding and you can apply (or spend) your skill points. Let's say that you sword and boarded your way through the dungeon and that took up most of your time spent an this level. You would be able to put the max amounts of points into one-handed weapons, block, and heavy armor. What if you also used your speech skill a few times to get a sweeter reward or to improve your standing with the locals? Well, because you used a skill a few times you can put a few (very few, maybe one or two) points into your speech skill. If you didn't make any potions then you couldn't put any points into Alchemy. If you didn't roll around and show people the business end of your two-handed Hammar of Bannination, then you cannot put any points into Two-hand Weapons. That's what I would like to see.

 

I think I can live with the vanilla version though. :thumbsup: