Is Jefferson relevant to the Framing of the Constitution?

[myrmaad]

Oh look it's the great pumpkin. I come bearing clues. They're free, get one.

 

http://www.c-span.org/Events/Thomas-Jefferson-and-John-Adams/10737422572/

Thomas Jefferson and John Adams:Watch Now

http://www.c-span.org/Events/Thomas-Jefferson-and-John-Adams/10737422572/

Richard Brookhiser on Jefferson & Madison: Watch Now

http://www.pbs.org/jefferson/

Thomas Jefferson, a PBS film and website

http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/thomasjefferson

The White House The Presidents of the United States of America series, Jefferson entry

http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/biog/

Life of Thomas Jefferson, University of Virginia

http://www.bibliomania.com/NonFiction/Jefferson/Autobiography/chap00.html

Jefferson's autobiography online

http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/Jefferson/index.html

Writings by Jefferson, from LibertyOnline

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_vsrf.html

1779 Virginia statute for religious freedom, by Jefferson

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

Jefferson and the issue of the separation of Church and State

[Lisnpuppy]

Throwing this out before I sleep. Its just a quib that I will follow up with later.

 

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_q_and_a.html

 

Great Pumpkins are AWESOME!

 

*takes blanket into patch and goes to sleep*

[grannywils]

@Lukertin, did someone tromp all over your James Madison tee shirt? It sounds to me as though you just feel he has not been given enough credit for his role as a Founding Father, and that perhaps Thomas Jefferson as been given too much. It seems to me that all of those brave and brilliant men who stood together during those days (whether physically present or not at the signing) deserve our respect, and need not be fought over. It sounds as if you're saying "my dad's bigger than your dad" in the school yard. Madison and Jefferson worked together. They admired and respected one another. What you say about James Madison is true. However, he and Thomas Jefferson worked together to organize the "Republican Party" in opposition to the Federalists. He also worked (again together with Thomas Jefferson) to protest the Alien and Sedition Acts.

 

These remarkable men deserve equal respect, and I find it difficult to understand why you sound so vehement in your dismissal of Mr. Jefferson. Why do you continually say that no import should be given to someone who has "no voting power........" "........so he wrote and bounced ideas off one of the 'guys' there......"

 

My concern here is not so much in proving anything to you at this point, as I do not truly believe that it requires proof. I just do not understand what seems to be your somewhat excessive need to disprove it.

[lukertin]

@grannywils

My nitpick is people who use the word "intent of the founders" or "framer's intent" in the same sentence as "Thomas Jefferson". In my opinion they do not belong together by any stretch of the imagination, and nobody has presented particular facts suggesting that they do. He is presumed to have no impact on the Constitution's drafting by virtue of the fact that he wasn't there--he wasn't even in the country (just like everyone present at the Convention is presumed to have an impact on the Constitution's drafting absent facts to the contrary, e.g., in actuality they just sat there and dozed off half the time). The burden is on the people arguing that he had impact on the Constitution to present facts in support of their argument,--they haven't.

 

I have the utmost respect for Thomas Jefferson as a statesman, philosopher, and scientist, in fact in my book the highest echelon of the founding fathers include Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, George Washington, and Alexander Hamilton. James Madison is not among them.

 

@myrmaad

I'm not going to root through hours of information looking for what your point is.

[Lisnpuppy]

Odd as I haven't used any of those words though you have used "intent" about 8 times.

 

Also I am not a "they" and I have been the only one to really participate in this. You came in guns blazing from the onset. Regardless of what I add to this I have a feeling you won't see it as any evidence at all. Requesting this information can be done in several ways. Perhaps you should re-read your post as they, and I am sure it is not your intent....they sound very rough and ready.

 

This doesn't feel like a respectful debate to me. It does feel like something though.

 

I believe I am finished. I thank everyone for their time.

[lukertin]

Odd as I haven't used any of those words though you have used "intent" about 8 times.

This thread spawned from a discussion regarding Jefferson and his 'intent' behind interpreting the Constitution. It has thus colored every post I've made in this thread, so apologies if that is confusing to you. You should probably be aware that I've accordingly treated 'relevant' to mean 'intimately involved with', or more simply, "Jefferson is so intertwined with the Constitution that an analysis of it cannot do without reference to him".

 

Regardless of what I add to this I have a feeling you won't see it as any evidence at all. Requesting this information can be done in several ways.

If this were the case, I would not be inviting anyone to present evidence. I have invited people to present evidence 3 or 4 times, no relevant evidence has yet to be presented that would even reasonably support the contention that Jefferson was relevant to the Framing of the Constitution.

 

(This isn't aimed at your but addresses some concern you seem to raise.) Posting a general link and telling me to go read it is not presenting evidence. It's actually very disrespectful. Not only does it suggest that the poster's time is more valuable than everyone else's, because it implicates that the poster has done nothing more than copy paste a bunch of crap -- there's no suggestion he even read the links he is posting. On the flip side, if I'm wiling to do research and present a summary of my findings and reasoning in support of that finding, others should be expected to do something somewhat analogous, i.e., more than posting a numerous links to a ton of information and saying "Here's your proof". At the very least describe the nature of the proof. Describe how it supports your argument by drawing direct links between the proof and what it shows. Conclusory statements are insulting to everyone's intelligence.

 

Would you take someone seriously who links to www.bls.gov as proof that the unemployment rate has stabilized? Why should I even dignify that when I now have to spend another 15-30 minutes combing through that website just to find the particular data or web page in support of that statement in order to make an informed response?

 

This is supposed to be a debate, not show without tell.

Edited October 18, 2011 by lukertin

[myrmaad]

I've already watched those programs I linked, and others.

 

However, it appears you are getting my message. Except for one thing, I didn't say or imply "here's your proof". I'm pretty sure I implied "do your own homework".

[Lisnpuppy]

I assume most of that diatribe is not at me.

 

Again, I don't believe you invited me to do anything..you demanded I do it. To me...your manner of wording things is very abrupt and rude sounding. Again as this may not be your intent...but that is how it comes across to me...and perhaps others.

 

I participate in these debates for a reason and though I am happy to present the evidence you so desire...I am not going to pull out my college books or my history degree and dust them off for it. If I have ready access to information then I will provide it. If not..or if I have to tend to other things then I bow out.

 

So have fun everyone.

[lukertin]

Except for one thing, I didn't say or imply "here's your proof". I'm pretty sure I implied "do your own homework".

Same difference. You assume I didn't do research beforehand. That's equivalent to saying "Here's your proof" because by implying that I should do my own homework, you simultaneously imply that if I had done my homework, I would have the proof needed to re-direct the conclusions I made.

[myrmaad]

Unfortunately, you make a lot of assumptions about what my assumptions are, and I can tell you, you're wrong about those. But that's just the way I roll.

 

There was a pony in the links I gave. Too bad.