Why does OBSE require the Steam overlay?

[vladkornea]

OBSE is a thoroughly tested, tried and proven script extending framework used by millions. The only issues I'm hearing about it is people not knowing how to start it, especially when using Steam and one of the more... exotic releases of Oblivion, but for every release "someone" knows how it's done. Other than that OBSE itself is a text book example of reliable.

 

I'm sorry, I don't want to insult, but this is ridiculous. You're the same guy who said "nobody knows anymore for 100% certain what is required for OBSE to work with Steam". Did you change your mind about that? Is it now your advice that I ignore the official documentation about the Steam overlay being required, and play the game with confidence that disabling the overlay won't interfere with any OBSE functionality anywhere in the game, and that Steam won't change anything about their overlay that would prevent OBSE from working a month from now? You guys are starting to act as I'm insulting your favorite pet, I really don't need to be told condescendingly to try trial-and-error or told defensively that OBSE is used by millions. My conclusion from this thread so far is that relying on OBSE would be a bad idea. If the author of OBSE updates the installation instructions to say that the Steam overlay is no longer required, then I will change my mind about using OBSE.

[DrakeTheDragon]

Well, I'm sorry, if there was some misunderstanding, but quite frankly, I was telling facts. The integration with Steam is not an integral part of OBSE. I'm not even using Steam myself, so I honestly couldn't care less.

If Steam messed something up, again, as usual, it's a problem of Steam, or better yet its users, not OBSE's. If the victims of Steam now have to go search for someone who knows what has to be done to get OBSE running with their specific version of Steam/the game, it doesn't change the fact that OBSE itself is not to blame.

 

How is the OBSE team supposed to constantly rework and fix the Steam integration part whenever Steam decides to run another update breaking it again? Especially because they mostly moved on to the other games already, creating SKSE, FOSE, F4SE etc., and only rarely come back anymore.

 

No offense, but I really don't need to protect OBSE or its developer team here. It's just too big a thing already and doesn't require anymore support. Look at its track record ever since release, OBSE itself was never at fault.

If Valve really one day decides to break Steam integration beyond repair for good, it'll be a huge disservice to its customers, locking them out of about 80% of Oblivion mods in existence, massive projects like Oblivion Reloaded, OBGE, Blockhead, Oblivion Character Overhaul, Unnecessary Violence, and maybe Deadly Reflex, all mods of mine and a huge multitude of others are all doing things impossible in the original game without OBSE.

 

Whether "you" use OBSE or not is up to you, totally, but remember it's a gateway, allowing you access, or preventing it, to all these mods and a multitude more, depending on your decision, so make your choice.

 

 

Now excuse me, Sunday's almost over and I want to make some more progress with my bodypart control framework still. And there's other parts of the forums needing my attention as well while I'm here.

[vladkornea]

If Steam messed something up, again, as usual, it's a problem of Steam, or better yet its users, not OBSE's.

 

Look, I bought the GoTY version on DVD years ago, but the only way to get the DLC now is by either buying the Knights of the Nine disc as well or buying the Steam version. The Knights disc does not include Fighter's Stronghold, only the Steam version does. So I bought the game twice, and when I try to figure out whether OBSE will work for me, a moderator tells me to use OBSE because it's my fault if it doesn't work with Steam. This is not objective advice; it's just "OBSE good, Steam bad", but the question was never which of the two is closer to your heart. Shaming Steam users doesn't solve anything.

Edited June 18, 2016 by vladkornea

[Surilindur]

You can copy the small DLC from the Steam version to a safe place, uninstall the Steam version, install the DVD version and put the small DLC into that one. That way you can use the DVD version, but also have the small DLC. I did that with my 5th Anniversary Edition, although I now use the Steam one instead (for a change). As for the overlay thing, no idea why it would require that, now or before, maybe someone who has read through the source code could tell you why the technical implementation would require Steam overlay to be used.

 

You can install the game, install OBSE, then see if OBSE gets loaded when you start the game (from Steam) with overlay enabled. Then you can see if it works with overlay disabled. My Steam game with OBSE works with overlay disabled, but that is just me, and I do not use any Steam betas, and my antivirus does not block anything unnecessary (excluding a lipsync-related dll from Construction Set Extender, but that is irrelevant here). If you are unsure if something works, the solution is to first follow the official instructions, see if it works, then try if it still works when doing things a bit differently - in this case, first test with overlay enabled, then with overlay disabled.

 

When testing, remember to not have any mod active, because if Alenet has stated that the overlay should not be used, and you use it, it could affect the test results. To see if OBSE is active, you can, for example, load up a game, select an NPC, and type something like:

SetRefEssential 1

Because, if I remember correctly, that is an OBSE command, and if it executes successfully, OBSE is active, but if it throws an error about command not being recognised, OBSE might not be active. Just one potential way to test it. Someone said the OBSE team worked out something with Steam, so that when the obse_steam_loader.dll or such would be in the game directory, Steam would load OBSE automatically. That is why, when trying to start Oblivion/OBSE using obse_loader.exe with the Steam version, it will show a message that tells you to launch the game from Steam instead. Launching the game from within Steam should also cause OBSE to get loaded, if it is properly installed and nothing is interfering. It works for me, with overlay disabled. You need to test and see if it works for you, waiting for someone to tell you the answer will take a lot longer than testing it yourself. :thumbsup:

[Maskar]

OBSE is vital for modding Oblivion. All my mods require it. I would not even consider creating any mods without it.

 

I don't use Steam, so can't help with that.

[DrakeTheDragon]

 

If Steam messed something up, again, as usual, it's a problem of Steam, or better yet its users, not OBSE's.

 

Look, I bought the GoTY version on DVD years ago, but the only way to get the DLC now is by either buying the Knight of the Nine DVD as well or buying the Steam version. The Knights DVD does not include Fighter's Stronghold, only the Steam version does. So I bought the game twice, and when I try to figure out whether OBSE will work for me, a moderator tells me to use OBSE because it's my fault if it doesn't work with Steam. This is not objective advice; it's just "OBSE good, Steam bad", but the question was never which of the two is closer to your heart. Shaming Steam users doesn't solve anything.

 

 

 

First off, unless I'm using orange, I'm not talking as a moderator here. We're only volunteers, so when I reply it's as an author, and a member of the Nexus just like you only. I was doing this support and helping others thing already long before I was promoted, and I won't stop doing it now. It's not part of the job though, so I'm not a moderator when I do.

 

I didn't tell you it's "your" fault, I told you it's Steam's. You asked if OBSE was reliable, I said yes and explained. I'm helping people here with their issues in getting the various basic modding tasks done with the disc versions "and" Steam for over a decade, and in the process it appears the solutions necessary to keep things afloat when using Steam have inadvertently changed multiple times, due to Steam just having pushed out yet another update breaking other vital things as result, things even their own developers were working hard on in the past to introduce. I didn't shame Steam's users, I called them "victims" after all.

 

You can understand my frustration with Steam's awful way of doing it when in all those years like every second time the result of a trouble shooting session turns out to be "no, it's not working like that any longer, Steam apparently changed it again". I'm not hating on Steam, just on its business process of repeatedly throwing everybody over by not checking their updates' effects on other core features before pushing out their release. I'm working in the software development branch myself, and if I were to pull that trick, I'd be fired in a heartbeat.

 

It doesn't help not knowing how it currently works myself due to not using Steam, and whenever I get the response "no, it's no longer working that way" when it previously was for years, we have to go investigate together how it's actually done, it's slowly starting to get frustrating. That's why I always give my solutions from past experience with a huge grain of salt and a blinking red "beware of Steam having changed it again" sticker on top. "Somebody" always knows, because the Steam users are rather quick in figuring it out and fixing it themselves, usually, but this solution then isn't necessarily as easy to find or widespread among the usual places. And if it keeps changing with even the game's distribution versions again, how is anybody supposed to offer consistent support?

 

Wether OBSE will work for you or not is up to Steam exclusively. I say it definitely will as of right now, or I'd heard different from multitudes of disappointed Steam users by now. The question just remains the exact "how", which isn't exactly a consistent answer in regards to Steam, and whoever you ask might answer you differently, depending on which version of the game or which distribution, package, bundle, or whatever they use.

 

It is a matter of fact, when I respond to help requests with certain basic parts of using mods with the game, that I always have to write along "if you're using the disc version, it simply goes like so, BUT if you're using a version from Steam, you must also beware of X, Y and Z... unless, of course, they changed it again. Then I don't know.", just like I did here. It's got nothing to do with the mod or tool, but always only with Steam. Never blame the product, when the platform is at fault.

 

I could stop providing support for Steam users at any time, and maybe I should, given I don't know anything about the platform itself apart from it apparently always changing. But whenever I did we were always able to figure it out together in the end, and I learned something new as a result. What I learned just won't last for long, as, apparently, it's going to change the next update again anyways, and I'll just have to go all over it again the next time someone asks. Should it stop me from doing what I do and helping people out with all knowledge I possess, even if only little in this regard, you must answer for yourself. But I know my answer without any second thinking, or at least for a little while longer still.

[Striker879]

I'd like to second what Drake says about Steam changing things and breaking what had been working for their users ... I've seen it a number of times myself.

 

Unfortunately we don't have very many Steam users who are also active in helping with support requiests here. Contra's contributions are always welcome, and if your own research leads you to learning some of what works and what doesn't I encourage you to join our small team of troubleshooters.

 

When you really would like to help but don't have the first hand knowledge needed (like in this Steam issue here) I myself don't like to see a request just left without any attempt to help. I'll ususally wait a day or two to see if anyone has something to offer, and if not I'll try to help as best I can. If you found the tone of my reply condescending I do appologize ... that wasn't my intention.

 

Back when I worked a large part of my job was troubleshooting, which is probably why I'm still "working" the help desk here. My advice was just what I consider basic troubleshooting. That's how I work through any of the problems I run into myself ... gather what data I can and come up with some different ways of testing that will show a result that can be used to draw conclusions. If the test results in ambiguous results you still won't know more than you started out with.