JackTrenton Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) I keep going back to the conversations with Hanlon (Hoover Dam bleeding NCR dry and indefinite occupation), the science guy on the Vault 22 quest (food crisis), and Marcus in Jacobstown saying that rolling over people starts revolutions. Seems to me like NCR is in a no win in the Mojave - even if they do win. Yes Man/House forcing them to pull out and curtail their expansionism may be better for NCR, by ending the Mojave drain on them. Similar situation with the Lanius speech checks about losing the east by taking the west, and stretching supply lines to far. Perhaps the Mojave is just a millstone. The gravestone of post-apocalyptic empires? Like Afghanistan today. Ironic situation. The winner at the Dam will get sucked into a never ending occupation, financial drain, supply drain, food drain, and blood drain. The loser will be free of it and maybe even prosper - use the blood, caps, and food that would have otherwise gone to the Dam, to strengthen the people back home. In their efforts to win militarily they are neglecting their home situations. Pouring everything into the war, and creating shortages and fatigue among your own people. Classic revolution scenario. Occupation and expansionism end empires. Might be a real world lesson in that. Edited November 10, 2011 by JackTrenton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minngarm Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 No, you're comparison of the Mojave to Afghanistan is not accurate there. The Mojave is a blood and cap drain to the NCR and Legion yes, but only because of the other. Regardless of the Mojave, the existance of both factions will still cost both sides thousands of lives and millions of caps. The Mojave has no meaning in that other than it happens to be where they ran into each other. Think of it like Peleliu. Its of no particular tactical value in the grand scheme of things, has a dam (airfield) that will make life easier in the area for those who choose to use it. but the area itself means nothing overall. Regardless of who wins the dam the war will continue and both sides will bleed into it until only one remains. In all likely-hood it will be the Legion that falls, not because of their shun on advanced technology, but rather because they are only united under Caesar, and now with Graham out of the picture, there is no one who commands as much respect as he, to take charge when he dies. As for the prospect of neglecting their home situation, first the Legion exists for war, so all their "home" tribes live and breath with the aspiration of taking part in the greater glory of the Legion. Without this war they would lose focus and fall apart. The NCR is also committed to a conflict in the south of unknown details, they are also moving citizens east to new territories to inhabit them, thus reducing the dissent in their home land by removing those that are most likely to be disgruntled (think England during the colonial days, unity at home strengthened by moving the riffraff out to new lands.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModelV Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Your missing a few important things. The Mojave, as strange as it sounds, is an oasis in the wasteland. All that non-radiactive water is very valuable. Not to mention the technology laying around thats been left largely unnoticed. The lack of food and supplies on the NCR's side is the fault of the NCR for not moving supplies to where they are needed. Notice the overstock of food at McCarren. The speech check with the Legate is...a speech check. Your lying. However Minngarm is correct the conflict while continue regardless of who takes the Mojave. ITs pretty much impossible to say who would eventually win as both faction are on shacky footing but whoever takes hold of the Mojave will have the upper hand while Vegas independance will not help either side. Caesar has a plan to shift the Legion into a standing army rather then the nomatic war clan it is now once he takes Vegas and sets it up as the capital. No idea what the NCR are planning though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackTrenton Posted November 11, 2011 Author Share Posted November 11, 2011 (edited) I guess I just disagree. Occupation and expansion has brought the end of almost every empire that has ever existed. There are many dialogues that show it happening to the NCR and Legion in the Mojave. Go talk to the scientist in Mccaren if you don't think food is a problem in the NCR. It's the entire reason for the vault 22 quest. The issue isn't about moving supplies, it's about having too many mouths to feed back home. Nothing to do with the Mojave forces. Hunger is the #1 reason that revolutions happen. Edited November 11, 2011 by JackTrenton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModelV Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 (edited) Well i can think of many reasons why the NCR will fall no matter what happens in the end of FNV but setting that aside... I havent seen anything saying the Legion have suffered from the war in the Mojave. At least nothing near as close to whats happening with the NCR. Also foodshortages in the NCR are unrelated to the Mojave and the Mojave has the ability so offset this. Maybe. We havent actually seen any exact data on this and I highly doubt the info inside Vault 22 will help with this. Data lose if there was anything that would help. Just looking at the growth pattern outside of Vault 22 you can see that there isnt mcuh going on as the Vault has been open since just after the war and the grow hasnt spread more then the area around the Vault. The Vaults were never meant to save anybody. Also not moving food around could actually be causing the food shortage due to the amount of food going bad from excessive storage. Its bad legislation and leadership causing the problems as with all the problems in the NCR. Edited November 11, 2011 by ModelV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minngarm Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Independant vegas would either result in a two front war for house. or at best an uneasy alliance with the NCR, that puts his robot army between the NCR and the legion, giving them a respite for a time. The size, capacity, and tireless ability of the machines would see either Legion or NCR forces run over fairly easy as they are, its just the lack of ability to replace damaged or lost units that would eventually end house. As for the famine, well the war itself is a solution to food shortage, as it kills off a number of men and women who would have needed to be fed. War is good for economies, always has been, always will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModelV Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Three words: Auto Repair System. And two words: Ceralean Robotics. Upgraded Securitrons auto repair damage dealt to them. Destroyed securitrons simbly need their critical systems put back online the rest gets taken care ıf by the unit itself. House can just as easily renovate a factory a few blocks off from the Strip as he did the Casinos. That and just taking the dam cripples the forces of both the NCR and the Legion and since the Dam powers the NCR main power grid House also has the ability to hold the NCR hostage if a truce cannot be made. Legion's bloody easy to fight against if using the right tactics the NCR just has idiot leadership. Securitrons dont sleep, dont need to be fed, they dont even breathe. Perfect foot shoulder especially since each unit contains its own rocket artillery and House has instantaneous, live feed over the battle field something we havent even achieved today let alone the NCR or Legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MojaveMike Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 The reason the NCR wants the Mojave is mainly because of the Dam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marharth Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 They want the dam for power yes. They also want the clean water and if the entire NCR knew about vault err... is it 22? The one with the plants... Then they would have larger goals then just power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael120782 Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Well,independant with YesMan is bad. YesMan is skynet. My views YesMan ProsIndependant VegasYou could set laws ConsYesMan is now "assertive"Anyone see Terminator? Mr.HouseProsHighly AdvancedLaze Faire ConsNot that he doesnt care about the outlyng areas,he cant take care of them yet as he cannot risk over extending himself.Doesnt know everything NCRProsProtectonCustomers ConsTaxationCorruption LegionProsProtectionNo substance abuse ConsPretty much anything fun. IMHO House is the least of all evils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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