The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[HeyYou]

The war ended in a stalemate, but, the emperor had no choice but to sign? Seems to me, if the empire fought them to a stalemate, to the point the thalmor were willing to talk, that one minor detail could have been left out, and what were the elves going to do? Continue the war?

[Victor111]

@Sukeban

 

Haha The Godfather. Good one. Funny I drew you two apparently back in the ring. I just could not let bigmacy walk over you like that.

Also, your arguing in your last post was crystal clear. Well done.

 

@Bigmacy

 

hey bro,

 

Since this is indeed an open forum, I am very well aware that everyone has the right to post something here. That goes for me too, right?

If you want to put our discussion to an end here, so be it. But you can't blame me for dragging you in, because you couldn't resist replying to me yourself after all. So please stop agitating about it. (about Ulfric I only have to say one final thing: at least someone is agitating about the Thalmor...)

Also, you are the one who started writing in caps, making a big point over the Thalmor Dossier (you meant jokingly? You should have mentioned that in the post itself if you feel `harassed´. It sounded very serious to me...) Sukeban just proved fully and completely wrong. But whatever.

 

It is quite clear now that neither I nor anybody will convcince you, no matter how many or what arguments we bring. I should admit that I myself too will not so easily be convinced of supporting the wrong side. (I can't wait for that DLC to clear things up!) However, your posts did show me new interesting views on some of the different matters which together form the Imperial-Stormcloak debate. Thank you, I can only hope my posts did more or less the same to you.

 

(One tip though: try to focus more on what exactly you are saying about what instead of using the capslock to give you argument power. It reached new heights in your last post, lol)

 

Good, I will stop `harassing´ your posts, but only if you stop `harassing´ other people's posts as well (like you did to my first post here, remember?). The purpose of a forum is to share ideas and opninions, which is really all I did. Whenever there comes a time when you start writing total nonsense like you did to Sukeban, I or someone else will it straight. Sounds fair enough to me since this is an open forum. How arguing with you is going to help the Imperial case depends on the content of the arguing however.

 

 

I want to conclude with saying that I think it is a very good thing people like us can have interesting discussions over these complex things, sharing ideas. Absolutely compelling. And like you I can't wait for the DLC to possibly let us fight Elenwen. Something we agree on!

I too have other things on my mind now, so let's move on and conlude it here.

 

 

all the best from the Netherlands,

 

Victor111

 

`What man is a man that does not try to make this world a better place?´ - Balian of Ibelin, Kingdom of Heaven

 

ALL HAIL THE STORMCLOAKES

 

FREEDOM OR SOVNGARDE!

[StormHammer81]

@Victor111

 

Very Good. Hey, I could drag this on forever but, you know, let's just take a break and see what some of these other cats have to say. The reason for my previous reaction is basically because you kept calling me out and not because of your argument. :thumbsup:

 

Furthermore, please under this. If an Imperial or perhaps yes, even a Thalmor tries to share their opinion on here... and you Stormcloaks continue to rip their post, let me assure you, I will be here to set you folks straight. :devil: Although I was having a legitimate discussion with sukeban. And trust me, he doesn't need your help. Although I respect your arguments as well. It's just, it's like the three of us are hogging this thing and well, give someone else a try. I would however, love to visit the Netherlands and get away from the states for a while. These people over here sometimes - Woo-Hoo!!! :wallbash:

 

Basically, I think sukeban, you and myself have pretty much covered everything, for now!!! :hurr:

 

So let me just say this and I'm off, as this is how I really feel:

 

Ultimately, I'm on the side of the Empire and Skyrim. I do not support Titus Mede II and I do sympathize with the people of Skyrim, just not Ulfric. Believe me, I can understand their need for independence. And indeed, ousting the Empire will make Skyrim an independent kingdom, but the people will not be free. It's like they're trading one problem for another. Whereas the Empire's issues will end with Ulfric and eventually someone, such as Jarl B or Tullis or Elisif or (More likely) The Dragonborn, will finally "Break the Ice" on the ban of Talos, allowing Talos worship again under the Concordat, which to a great extent is already happening, like the Shrine of Talos in the middle of Whiterun.

 

Either way, I really don't see the Concordat lasting too much longer. With the death of Titus Mede, comes the death of the Concordat. Specifically, there were two or three times in game where I either joined the Stormcloaks or was really tempted to do so. The motivation for doing this, was whenever I would go on one of my infamous "Thalmor Hunts", I would initiate battle with them and destroy them in good order. But then, because of this, the "Lawful Faction" (including Whiterun, etc) would attack me because they see it as a murder. Later on I realized, it's perfectly ok to Hunt/Kill the Thalmor but you MUST do it through their dialogue, which in essence, means you must provoke the Thalmor into attacking you. Anyways, as a Stormcloak, I was actually down with most of what I heard... To a point. Most of it. I sat in on this briefing where there plan was to rape, pillage and otherwise destroy Jarl B and Whiterun. I have to be honest, Jarl B of Whiterun is a very nice guy who is a good administrator and goes AGAINST the Concordat by allowing Talos worship in his city. Jarl B was very generous and has taken care of me on several occasions, hooking me up with a NICE set of Nord Steel Heavy Armor (w/ Pauldrons) and other nice things. He did this for the good of Skyrim, not to get back at Ulfric or the Stormcloaks. Jarl B tries to remain Neutral and is very honest, "I'm on the side of Whiterun." I have a great deal of respect for this man.

 

So, as a Stormcloak, I was faced with a choice. Do I... continue with this crusade, which will Ultimately mean me spearheading an unjust crusade against a Jarl who is NOT part of the problem and just cares about his people, EVEN to the point of RISKING IT ALL by allowing his people to openly worship TALOS and exercise free speech in violation of both the Empire and the Thalmor??? Now, I'm sure someone may attempt to explain this, but you really can't. Jarl B allows freedoms of Religion and Speech in Whiterun, doesn't even allow the Empire garrison troops inside the city. He's on the side of Whiterun. So, as a Stormcloak I had to think about that for a moment, isn't that what we're fighting for? A house divided against itself cannot stand. So when Ulfric and friends started talking about how Ulfric will be high king and well, Jarl B won't give us a straight answer so we're going to just have to TAKE HIM OUT. I was like, Uhhhh Excuse Me? Wait... Why are we doing this again? To make your a$$ high king or??? I mean... Jarl B basically embodies both in mind and action what "we" all want. So, now... We're going to go get him because he doesn't agree... with Ulfric? Ahhhhhhhhhhhh... No. In fact, not no but hell no. I'm here for freedom and independence and all that cushy stuff, I'm not here to support someone's political platform. This is wrong. And honest to God, that is how it happened.

 

After I came to this realization, I took some responsibility and went back to Whiterun, answered for my crimes. I was charged a substantial fine + anger management and released. Then I started noticing... different things and finally decided to make my way to Solitude for whatever reason. And the rest is history. I realized that I was wrong. Ulfric was wrong and was using this really messed up situation to HIS advantage. I met everyone from the Empire side of the table and those guys (and gals) are really kool. They care more about the good of the people than what's necessarily good for them and all of them hate the concordat too. So why fight them? I just couldn't bring myself to do it. Don't they worship Talos and hate the Concordat too? It's crazy. Then I started looking for a way not to kill good people, preferably not kill anyone. That means something to me. I believe there needs to great justification before I take ANYONE'S side. So I remembered what Alvor and others had said and it was Titus Mede II who signed the Concordat. And I figured well, ok. So... Let's Just take the Fight to Him Instead. Then I discovered you can indeed DO JUST THAT... ... :dance:

 

Looking at the big picture then, it was clear to meet that the problem WAS NOT with the Imperials themselves. It's not. Tullis and crew are not the enemy here. They want what's best for Skyrim and just want the war to end. Ulfric on the other hand, well, I will NOT allow any harm to come to Jarl B or to the great city of Whiterun. Attacking him makes no sense whatsoever unless you're just in it for yourself. Once again, Ulfric "challenges" Jarl B but the thing is, if the Empire was going to force Jarl B to do something, which they DID NOT DO, Jarl B would have stood his ground against them as well. Jarl B is truly on the side of Whiterun looking out for what is his. Leaving Jarl B in power is what needs to happen. Because given a little time, the other Jarl's will FOLLOW his example. And with the Emperor gone, this leaves room for new leadership and puts the Concordat in jeopardy. It would be the difference between Bush being forced to honor something Clinton signed into law. Politics rise and fall.

 

Honest to God and before everyone else here, this is ultimately my reason for siding with the Empire. I am not necessarily against the Stormcloaks. But I DO FIRMLY BELIEVE that... someone willing to start a war with Jarl B IS A BAD PERSON. Definitely has ulterior motives. If Jarl B is neutral, then there is NO need to attack. None. He's neutral. Ulfric keeps trying to prove a point and the more he does, the worse things become.

 

I understand that Skyrim is just a game. But like in life, I also understand that I am responsible for my actions. And how my actions could impact others. Should I rape, pillage and defile a NEUTRAL city-state (The best hold IMO) who have not threatened or done anything to block my cause? Ulfric attacked Whiterun because they weren't with him, not because there was an actual problem or injustice of any kind there. Another thing I don't like is how I can be in the middle of say, Whiterun Hold and come across a Stormcloak patrol and then they tell me that I need to move. NO! I'm a civilian and this is neutral territory. You have no authority over me, you keep moving! Then they attack me just because I'm standing on, "Their Land." No prisoner escort or anything like that, they're where THEY shouldn't be and I'm just minding my own business.

 

For me, the line is drawn at this point and shall be drawn NO further. The Empire is not itself, sure. But this is because the wrong man was leading it ~ He will be removed. But THE PEOPLE of the Empire are themselves. THE PEOPLE need someone in the Imperial gov to have their voice heard. And Titus Mede II isn't doing that. The Dragonborn will. Jarl B does listen to his people. Why condemn someone who is innocent, why bury one who isn't dead, why give up on an old friend who has kind of lost his way because of another evil person, why take a gun to your family pet who has always loved you but now they're sick and you might have to pay for them to be healed, why break a perfectly good leg which has always carried you, why take a cancer patient whose a member of your family and start removing organs as punishment just because they have cancer and you may have to help them heal, why steal from someone when you already HAVE PLENTY, why condemn someone who holds your ideals but doesn't follow YOU, why BLAME EVERYONE ELSE for what happened to you during the war, why not just GO AFTER the people who started all of this. And that would be the Thalmor, Titus Mede II and Ulfric. Especially since the Empire was doing just fine, again, NOT enforcing the ban on Talos worship (at least not into people's personal lives) until Ulfric came along. Ulfric is on a quest for VENGEANCE. He does not give a f*ck about you or anyone else at all, including who else gets hurt in all of this because that's what happened to him.

 

The White Gold Concordat never should have been signed. But we're getting the head of the idiot who screwed us, all of us. At some point, it's time to stop pointing fingers and time to start acting responsible by putting sh*t back together again, the way it was, the way things are supposed to be and taking the fight to those responsible for this mess, namely the Thalmor.

 

A House Divided against itself cannot stand. Once again, you cannot... Destroy the Empire and then claim you're the Good Guys who are trying to save it. Doesn't work like that. Also killing parts of the Empire which ARE working proper is something the Thalmor would do. Not a savior.

 

You can not convince me to "change" because I already have changed and my reward is before me. :dance: :dance: :dance:

 

 

 

"...obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim" :thumbsup:

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

Edited March 30, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Yanqui9]

Noobie here with 2 cents...

 

I usually play Empire because

 

1. When you raid the Thalmor Embassy, you find a dossier that Ulfric is a sort of inactive sleeper agent. It was very interesting because it was reminiscent of the Manchurian Candidate or that guy from Babylon 5 who got kidnapped and tortured by the Membari. Ulfric may not be 'one of them' but he was released back into the Empire by the Thalmor with the hope he would stir up trouble at the very least.

 

2. When entering Whiterun the first time, you encounter a racist attack on a dark elf woman by a raving Nord. I'm somewhat of a history buff and this Nord guy seems to be fully based on a very nasty piece of work named Julius Streicher, a fervent Nazi in Nuremburg of the 1930s who was known to wander the streets of that city in drunken rages, personally attacking Jews when he wasn't having his henchmen destroying their property. Even if the reference is totally accidental, to quote Indiana Jones "Nazis... I hate these guys..."

 

Yeah, I'm a 'gut reaction/knee-jerk' kind of guy. People tell me to be more logical. Maybe someday.

[SoulofChrysamere]

Noobie here with 2 cents...

 

I usually play Empire because

 

1. When you raid the Thalmor Embassy, you find a dossier that Ulfric is a sort of inactive sleeper agent. It was very interesting because it was reminiscent of the Manchurian Candidate or that guy from Babylon 5 who got kidnapped and tortured by the Membari. Ulfric may not be 'one of them' but he was released back into the Empire by the Thalmor with the hope he would stir up trouble at the very least.

 

2. When entering Whiterun the first time, you encounter a racist attack on a dark elf woman by a raving Nord. I'm somewhat of a history buff and this Nord guy seems to be fully based on a very nasty piece of work named Julius Streicher, a fervent Nazi in Nuremburg of the 1930s who was known to wander the streets of that city in drunken rages, personally attacking Jews when he wasn't having his henchmen destroying their property. Even if the reference is totally accidental, to quote Indiana Jones "Nazis... I hate these guys..."

 

Yeah, I'm a 'gut reaction/knee-jerk' kind of guy. People tell me to be more logical. Maybe someday.

 

 

You being a history buff, let me just say that the abuse of the Dunmer lass occurs in Windhelm, not Whiterun. :)

[Yanqui9]

 

You being a history buff, let me just say that the abuse of the Dunmer lass occurs in Windhelm, not Whiterun. :)

 

Well... I don't feel too bad about mixing up city names in a computer game. Kind of like being able to name the cities of the Moonsea in order from West to East. That's a little too 'buff' otaku to expect a person to be able to do. Now, real life that actually happened and effected people's lives, that's another story.

[azizking2]

Getting rid of the imperials in Skyrim won't really weaken the empire that much.

It will. And Skyrim will be weak too!

The Empire abandoned Hammerfell and the Reguards after they refused to allow the Aldmeri Dominion enter their land and ban Talos worship! The Aldmeri Dominion then declared war on Hammerfell and guess what happens? The Redguards won the war and all of Tamriel was surprised that a province alone could defeat the Aldmeri Dominion! The Nords are hardy and powerful warriors why can't they win a battle when their neighbors to the south west can! Ever since then relations between Cyrodil and Hammerfell have been tarnished! The Aldmeri Dominion may have defeated the Empire, but it has not defeated Skyrim! Ulfric isn't really that racist even if you play as an elf he respects the Dragonborn. Oh by the way I have been a Nord for Morrowind, Oblivion , and Skyrim and my characters have been loyal to the Nine and the Septim dynasty. I'm the person who role plays and all my characters are relatives so I call Sheogorath, Uncle Sheogorath because the Sheogorath in Skyrim is discovered to be your Oblivion character. I chose the Stormcloaks because Imperials tried to chop my head off, The Empire surrendered to the elves, and the empire banned the worship of Talos!

[azizking2]

I dunno, I was siding with the Stormcloaks for a while, but I couldn't decide. I mean, the Imperials were the ones trying to execute me in the beginning, so I naturally began to hate them at first. But then, the order was the work of a corrupt leader, not protocol for the Empire. So, it's more of a specific person.

 

But then, there were a few things that bothered me. The first was when I went to solitude, and I talked to the Jarl there. The conversations there bothered me. I mean, Ulfric wasn't just some random idiot; he was conversing with the king. And the king really wanted to listen to him and rebel, but it was impossible. It wasn't that he wanted to obey the empire, it was just that he had no choice. I mean, what was he gonna do, let his people starve and die because they've been cut off from the empire?

 

And then there's Markarth.

 

The whole thing with Ulfric taking the city...That bugged me, too. I mean, come on, he's not the only one taking over places. The Forsworn were totally cool running Markarth and had a great king, and the Ulfric comes in and messes with it. And he lives that idiot gold-hungry swine in charge, who dumps the king in the mines and kills anybody who asks questions...Seriously, guys? I mean, I know I'm probably biased because my first character was Breton and the Forsworn are Breton, but you'd think that it'd be common sense not to invade other people's territories and then try to liberate your own country. It's hypocritical.

 

 

I haven't chosen who I'm going with yet, but I'm strongly leaning towards the empire right now. I think I might eventually create a Nord and go for the Stormcloaks, but I can't imagine going with such anti-foreigners, especially with my character being a foreigner and all.

 

The only thing I think we can all agree on....the Thalmor need to die!

The Forsworn took the Reach while the Empire was distracted in the Great war

[StormHammer81]

Hmmm. I'm more than a little curious about something.

 

Periodically, I come here throughout the week and look at the counts when I have nothing better to do.

 

I'm noticing that... whenever someone chooses "Imperial" within 3 - 4 hours, the Stormcloaks also get a +1 to their count.

 

And this uhhh phenomena *only* happens with Imperials, not Toast and damm-sure not Stormcloaks.

 

It's like somone keeps adding to the Stormcloak score every time a user chooses "Imperials."

 

I dunno, I might be wrong but I've been watching it for weeks and it's like clockwork and there appears to be a pattern to it.

 

Wonder why that is?

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?!?

Edited April 11, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[YsmirNord]

What would you have done when your army is weak and tired after long fighting? Titus Mede II could risk a massacre against his people if he didn't sign that contract (I estimate 40% chance)

he did sign it, smart choice. The worship of Talos is banned until the empire has gained enough power to strike back. And besides why are people always making a point of this? Look around you. The Stormcloaks are not banning god, they are banning people, argonians, out of their own cities. They force Dunmers who fled their own homes to live in slums and then gonna say that they are spying for the Imperials. Are these things less worse than banning a single god? well your turn now...