The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[jukehero461]

I have not yet chosen a side, and have at the time of writing looked up this thread to help decide for my first character.

 

Having read many of the comments and posts here, I think I may have a decision...

 

The Empire, on one hand, are a way to unify all the provinces and put up a unified front against greater threats (aka the Thalmor). Many of the Imperials I have observed in-game do not seem to be bad people either. (With the exception of most the Battle-Borns in Whiterun. They're kinda zealous.)

 

However, they have allied with the Thalmor and have banned the worship of Talos. They also are spread thin and cannot hold the Empire for too long I would think. They are also restrictive and prone to preemptive strikes against those who they think may oppose them.

 

The Stormcloaks are based on the simple idea of independence from the Empire and the freedom to worship Talos. They remember the traditions of the Nords and are pround in their heritage.

 

However, Ulfric is a conquerer. He is headstrong and somewhat arrogant and a bit vicious as well. The Stormcloaks are also extremely inflexible, and are not always tolerant of other races. They are also paranoid and accusatory.

 

In the end, my first character is to join the Empire, for the greater good of all provinces, not just Skyrim.

[SilentResident]

OK, I casted my vote now, I voted for the Empire, because the racism of Thalmor and Stormcloaks is making me sick. At least the empire-controlled cities are not keeping the Khajiit outside of the city walls, unlike the Stormcloak-influenced cities. The numerous Khajiit I saw on the port of one of the Stormcloak cities, working like slaves, for terribly small fees, and without being allowed to enter the city at all, makes me realize that the Empire, unlike the Stormcloaks, is not racistic and it is the empire who fought the Thalmor in wars, while the Stormcloaks never fought with the Thalmor previously.

 

 

Also I discovered Ulfric Stormcloak was serving the Empire some time ago, not sure what rank he was, but before the events of Skyrim he was captured by the Thalmor and their agents and sold them information about the Empire. I don't think the information was valuable, but he betrayed the empire.

Ulfric in fact sold the Empire he served, to Thalmor. That makes sense especially since we the players thought that the Empire was the one who "sold" the mankind by banning the worship of the man god Talos.

Edited January 5, 2012 by SilentResident

[nexus464]

OK, I casted my vote now, I voted for the Empire, because the racism of Thalmor and Stormcloaks is making me sick. At least the empire-controlled cities are not keeping the Khajiit outside of the city walls, unlike the Stormcloak-influenced cities. The numerous Khajiit I saw on the port of one of the Stormcloak cities, working like slaves, for terribly small fees, and without being allowed to enter the city at all, makes me realize that the Empire, unlike the Stormcloaks, is not racistic and it is the empire who fought the Thalmor in wars, while the Stormcloaks never fought with the Thalmor previously.

 

 

Also I discovered Ulfric Stormcloak was serving the Empire some time ago, not sure what rank he was, but before the events of Skyrim he was captured by the Thalmor and their agents and sold them information about the Empire. I don't think the information was valuable, but he betrayed the empire.

Ulfric in fact sold the Empire he served, to Thalmor. That makes sense especially since we the players thought that the Empire was the one who "sold" the mankind by banning the worship of the man god Talos.

 

Sounds interesting, any references to the fact that Ulfric served the Empire and later on sold the Empire to the Thalmor?

[marharth]

OK, I casted my vote now, I voted for the Empire, because the racism of Thalmor and Stormcloaks is making me sick. At least the empire-controlled cities are not keeping the Khajiit outside of the city walls, unlike the Stormcloak-influenced cities. The numerous Khajiit I saw on the port of one of the Stormcloak cities, working like slaves, for terribly small fees, and without being allowed to enter the city at all, makes me realize that the Empire, unlike the Stormcloaks, is not racistic and it is the empire who fought the Thalmor in wars, while the Stormcloaks never fought with the Thalmor previously.

 

 

Also I discovered Ulfric Stormcloak was serving the Empire some time ago, not sure what rank he was, but before the events of Skyrim he was captured by the Thalmor and their agents and sold them information about the Empire. I don't think the information was valuable, but he betrayed the empire.

Ulfric in fact sold the Empire he served, to Thalmor. That makes sense especially since we the players thought that the Empire was the one who "sold" the mankind by banning the worship of the man god Talos.

 

Sounds interesting, any references to the fact that Ulfric served the Empire and later on sold the Empire to the Thalmor?

There is a book on him in the Thalmor embassy.

[Waylander7475]

An interesting choice you must make. Empire or Stormcloaks? I have traveled all over Skyrim and have seen what both sides get up to. The Empire believe that all people of all races should be equal and given a chance to settle where they choose. Interestingly enough, though, they arrest anyone who speaks out against this, ally themselves with a bigoted race like the Thalmor that have outlowed under pain of death the worship of Talos, and then execute citizens of Skyrim for fighting back against this. Slightly contradicting of them, i feel.

The Stormcloaks fight for a unified free land of honorable, strong, patriotic and proud sons and daughters of Skyrim. A land of peace and prosperity, ruled by one King, free from oppression where no one tells the other what to do. But then, they condemn all other races not of Skyrim. They hate the Elves who live in constant fear of the Nords - Winterhold sees its citizens regularly berate the "Greyskins". They close their doors to the peace loving Kajit, who only want to trade, forcing them to remain outside the cities. Ulfric - who betrayed the empire - makes his followers take an oath of loyalty. and to top it off plans to kill the jarls that disagree with him. A free country? i would say not. And so i shall remain the wanderer, observing both sides until the time comes when i MUST choose a side. At the moment i am leaning toward the Empire, "I'm country, she country, we country, come closer for it is a free country, and let us us watch the sun rise together"

[Zykerion]

I've been having some difficulty deciding this myself, though, I can speak from experience that I do not ever want to see the Stormcloaks in control of Skyrim. I actually started a character over to not deal with the world left behind. I don't think this is a spoiler, but just to say that the more I went down the Stormcloak path, the more I felt that I was handing Skyrim into the hands of a dictator. A greedy racist ass of a man who wants nothing but power. For now I'm staying out of it until I have absolutely nothing else to do.

 

Here are some facts of the current political situation in Skyrim to help others who may be sitting on the fence:

 

1. Ulfric Stormcloak is a highly charismatic ruler. In fact, some of the people who don't support him say he's a very good one as well. The problem is that his policies focus too narrowly on Nords, and he seems to care little for the rest of the people who are his responsibility. Interestingly enough, the city where he rules can be seen as something of a metaphor for him and his policies. Windhelm appears very spartan, little decoration, and unwelcoming to the average citizen. The Grey Quarter is a slum where the Dunmer live, shunned by the Nord majority who run the city. That Ulfric allows them in the city at all is very interesting.

 

Then you get to the Palace of the Kings. It is interesting to note how few windows there are on this structure. Not to draw too heavily on an Orwellian comparison, but the starkness of the building, and how opulent it is in contrast to the rest of the city, it could be seen as something not unlike The Ministry from Orwell's 1984. A cold, harsh exterior that has little association with the people it's supposedly meant to serve. Ulfric seems to fit the bill for 'rule to a few, but not all' quite well in this case.

 

2. The Empire is NOT allied with the Thalmor or the Aldmeri Dominion. People seem to keep claiming that they are in allegiance with one another. What people aren't actually understanding is that the White-Gold Concordat is essentially a cease-fire agreement between the Empire and the Dominion. One could also argue that it's basically Imperial terms of surrender, as the Empire is in something of a weakened position following the Great War.

 

As part of the agreement, the Empire is allowed its autonomy and the Dominion agrees not to attack. But part of that agreement is also to allow the Thalmor free reign to run an inquisition in all parts of the Empire that currently stand. This naturally makes the Empire appear even weaker than it most likely is, but provides much of the political incentive for a lot of the Nords of Skyrim to want to eliminate Imperial rule. They feel an intense sense of betrayal by what is essentially their creation in the first place. The Nords feel that the Empire is kowtowing to the Dominion and working in concert with them to root out Talos worship, etc. The peace conference during Season Unending should make it abundantly clear that the Empire doesn't care much for the Dominion, summed up by Tullius' rather terse remark to Elenwen at the negotiating table: "That's enough out of you."

 

3. Freedom for Skyrim's citizenry is a legitimate cause, as well as the cause of self-rule. How this cause is handled, however, makes all the difference in the world. Ulfric knows how to rally the masses behind his banner, but he does not seem above bullying and back-room deals to get his way. He can't quite grasp the idea that helping EVERYONE in Skyrim is in his best interest, and will make his cause stronger.

 

Tullius can be argued to be fighting for the same cause, but with different methods. Tullius makes some of the same mistakes Ulfric does. Tullius makes remarks towards Nords that can be seen as very racist, even to his closest subordinate, Rikke. Tullius also comes off as a bit overbearing and arrogant, which, as he is the Military Governor of Skyrim, reflects on the Empire as a whole. Instead of trying to counteract Ulfric's rhetoric, Tullius behaves in a self-righteous manner which is off-putting and does not garner support in the way it should.

 

Hopefully these arguments will help people who are having some difficulty deciding who to join. In the end, neither side is perfect, and it all comes down to personal preference and who matches your sensibilities the best. On my second playthrough though, I think I'm leaning more towards the Empire, to see what results, rather than listening to another word of Ulfric's version of 'Mein Kampf'.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Zykerion

[Kurosu93]

well i just finished the stormcloak part and i tell i regreted it.at start i thought of empire as tyranny ( i was sentenced to death just because i got caught close to ulfrik,even the horse thief was to die)so i instanlty hated the empire,plus when i reached solitude i saw they cut of another head.here is the thing though u only understand that the empire is good if u do the main quest WITHOUT ending the civil war fist.just go at the truce quest and u will understand.also during u fight with the rebels u realize ulfrik has a huge ego.

 

i will tell details here so if u dont want spoilers stop reading at this part!!!

 

1 ) empire is with the thalmor just because they need to.they hate em as much as the rebels do but since the thalmor have a grasp on them they just wait for the right moment

2) if u go at the truce u get a very good picture about both tulius and ulfrik.noticed that when the greybeards say to start negotiating ulfrik makes a demand to hand a city to him.now thats supposed to be a treaty huh??if he wanted skyrim good above himself he would say : we just make a truce no demands here.and when u favor the empire he starts like : i am out of here!!!when tulius just said he is disapointed that i decide terms favoring the stormcloaks instead of being fair ( unless i did not anger him enough).

3)its obvius ulfrik is just about the nords!!!he asks for a fair skyrim but at his own city he treats elves like : oh i have to let them in my city ? and he uses them like rubish.and finally during the rebelion u understand its all about him becoming the king.i realized it cause during the speech he says : i will only become king if the rest want me to be ,and then his second in command says : nice work about high king,like there was even a chance u wont become,and ulfrik says : yeah thought is as a good idea as well

 

ah and when u fight tullius u understand that thalmor wanted the rebelion.so now empire is even more weakened so they cant get free of thlamor for a long time!!hmm and skyrim is on his own now so hey a new land to conquer!!! ulfrik became a pawn of thalmor without knowing it.

 

common sense would be that ulfrik and empire work together to fight the elves but well that did not happen.still rebel side was fun but like i said i regreted it and i am pissed of i cant kill ulfrik after it

[Ingolenuru]

The choice for me is very simple. I am Dunmer so I am going to side with the Stormcloaks. I will defeat the Empire and then use the Nords of Skyrim and my new found powers to take the Summerset Isle as its rightful ruler. You see the Empire already got its butt kicked by Thalmor once so why would you expect them to do any better in a rematch? It is time for the Dragonborn to teach her elven people that all peoples must be free. It is time to end the wars against the Empire and the other lands of Tamriel. Once upon the throne of the Summerset Isles I will of course immediately make it the Imperial Seat joining all of the peoples of Tamriel into a non-restrictive and freedom loving Empire. All hail the Empress Raederle Killashandra.

[Zrehael]

The Long-Winded Version:

Honestly, I chose the Imperials. As a Khajiit, I chose to go with Hadvar in the beginning. Sure, they just tried to execute me, but gaining a little favor with them will go a long way in the end, regardless of the outcome. Besides, the reason I was on that cart was because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time with a bunch of traitors. Were I on a cart with just a bunch of people like the horse thief, it would've probably started just like Oblivion did: in a jail cell. The Stormcloaks honestly can't stand the elves or beast races, so I can't imagine possibly changing their minds about a Khajiit. Aside from that fact, Alvor gave quite the bit of good insight to the situation. If you went with Alvor and listened to what he has to say, he'll tell you that when the White-Gold Concordat was signed when he was a child, no one really cared too much. Everyone still had their little shrines to Talos, and no one was getting hauled off in the middle of the night. When Ulfric and his little groupies started getting all riled up about it, that's when the Emperor had to crack down, and that's why the Thalmor are now marching across Skyrim and dragging people out of their beds. He also goes on to say he doesn't support really anything that the Empire's done as of late, which I can imagine is the attitude of many loyalist Nords.

 

Of course, the word of one blacksmith wasn't really one to go on, but then I had a nice little talk with Sybille Stentor, the Solitude court wizard. She made some excellent points there as well. First off, let's not forget that the Thalmor made quick work of the Blades, a group of fighters that were easily the most skilled warriors of the Empire. How does Ulfric expect to fare any better with a bunch of ragtag recruits, only a few here and there having any real military training from the Empire? Stentor noted this when she remarked that the Dominion was "a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone." For all of the Dungeons and Dragons nerds out there, you might better know this tactic as "Don't split the party." She then went on to explain that many Nords were already a part of the Imperial Army, along with Skyrim's need of food and other resources that they receive from the Empire. The strongest point, however, was her saying "Even if we can't worship him openly, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this was his Empire."

 

The last reason I have is merely an assumption on my part, which is the current tactics of the Empire vs the Aldmeri Dominion. Many people seem to consider the Empire a puppet of the Thalmor, but lets not forget just how badly the Empire was curb stomped in the Great War. I see the Empire in the terms of a man with a knife to his throat. He's doing as he's told only until the person who has the knife at his throat drops their guard. Once the Thalmor let their guard down a little more, the Empire will make their move for one last strike against them. The Empire will need Skyrim's support for that, and, unless Skyrim wants to be overrun by elitist elves, Skyrim will need the support of the Empire as well.

 

Honestly though, I'd love to see if anyone can come up with some justification that a Khajiit would side with the blatantly racist Stormcloaks. I had the idea for doing another Khajiit character so I could play through as a mage (If you haven't noticed by now, I'm a fan of the Khajiit) instead of my usual warrior/thief archetype. It'd be interesting to see Ulfric sucking up to the Dragonborn for help, who happens to be a "cat".

 

Obligatory tl'dr Version:

Played a Khajiit. Went with Hadvar for the pardon. Sided with the Empire because the Stormcloaks are a bunch of racist SOBs and Ulfric's a greedy bastard. Would love to hear sound reasoning for a "cat" to fight for the Stormcloaks instead for another character idea I have.

[SKYRIMISCRAZY]

We can start with they tried to chop my head off second the blades is fags,

 

I think ulfirc is a nobleman hes honest and kind hearted he want to free skyrim not takeing over it i can see hes not a leadet thoutgh but hes strong, that the stormcloaks want is freedom so why the f*** no give them that, the imperlas is the bigest whores kill slay theres like acient room: bastards

 

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