The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[Eddieawsome]

Looking at the people behind the factions Ulfric has no real claim to the throne other than the fact that he got a big axe.However Titus Mede has just al little a claim but he did prove himself during the great war as a keen thinker and strategist. On there personality`s Ulfric is a bit hot headed and can not be counted upon to keep a cool head, whereas Titus upon hearing of his death accepts and resigns to it, thinking of the empire before himself.Besides the Stormcloaks are just being impatient, a civil war is exactly what the thalmor wanted to happen when they banned the worship of talos, so my ruling is: Empire: :thumbsup: Stormcloaks :down: .

 

Sorry Ulfric old pal. Now if you will excuse me I have a bunch of crazy elves to kill.

[wdrewjr]

I haven't chosen either side yet, and don't intend to (except out of curiosity), because my choice, and what I believe to be the correct choice, wasn't offered. Bethesda did leave a placeholder of sorts for the ending I would have chosen, but the choice itself doesn't exist. The warring Nord factions need to be united before the war weakens them to the point of irrelevance. For a fleshed out explanation see:

 

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/626735-alternate-civil-war-ending-needed/page__p__4931364__fromsearch__1#entry4931364

[hafnerwwh]

Yep. All true. You know, if you make it through Helgen fast enough you can actually catch up with Elenwen on the way back to the Embassy. She's not hostile or anything like that. :D

 

So, does anyone else on here prefer using two-handed weapons other than me? Is there any way of speeding up their attack rate?

 

Another thing I don't like is how Steam is constantly synching so my game is always lagged.

I occasionally get the same lag issue when I play while on a slower bandwith connection, or when I have my laptop on power sipping mode. And for the record two handed is the way to go. Wuuthrad FTW (especially when killing thalmor). And there is a thu'um "elemental fury" that allows faster weapon strikes.... I've really been meanin to get around to trying it myself but I'm too busy breathing fire all over everyone...

[StormHammer81]

@hafnerwwh Thanks again! My Orc character has a 2H Dwarven Battle-Axe of Fire that just annihilates everything.

 

@wintercool LMAO.

 

@wdrewjr Amazing. This is probably one of the most intelligent arguments (aside from my own and perhaps Imperistan :D) that I have ever read from here. Everyone is always like duhhh "Kill the Empire" blah, blah, blah. can't believe so many people are that willing to just turn on the Empire. I mean, according to Hadvar, that chick in the beginning probably thought you were a Stormcloak. Doesn't excuse it but the Stormcloaks can be short-sighted too. However you sir know what you're talking about. This is a weakness in the storyline, you shouldn't just have to choose one or the other. Perfect for a DLC.

 

@ArgonianiteEmpire11 Agree on all points.

 

Looks like the next DLC is something called, "Dawnguard." Will be about Vampires, Falmer, Snowprince and Crossbows. Maybe it will tell us more.

Edited May 11, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[hafnerwwh]

Ironically I've read this entire debate from page one but only commented on and unrelated issue... that being that I incessantly love dual handed weapons :biggrin: . After now having played two characters extensively I can't make this coice for either character... I don't want to say that you as a person or character should be above picking sides but... shouldn't you.... Shouldn't everyone in that realm at least be able to see past their own pedantic triffling squabbles until the greater problem (thalmor should I even need to mention it) is solved... quite frankly after that I'd take my happy dragon-birthed hind end somewhere else where every major faction isn't mired in and covered by the stench of it's own refuse. If you ask my opinion Bethesda should have done this the other way round. Make the factions a uniteable, rag tag, and unexpected alliance (serious referece to mass effect 3 where it was an option but not a nessecessity) and prep for the thalmor while dealing with this whole time-travelling doom dragon scenario. Then first DLC package.... call it "bye bye bye" if you like and we all get to do what we want and eject the thalmor (further options could be included for those who want thalmor dominaton). But the plot thickens!... after all this nessecessity has bound everyone together but now the threads of the alliance wears thin... BAM DLC package numero dos. Now we play this nonses about skyrim for nords and imperial death marching... we're still left with what, for most at least, will be a main plotline with a less than satisfactory ending people can debate in really interresting and wonderful forums like these (this thread has occupied my time and mind for honestly a whole week). I won't make my argument for either faction yet because I still need more substance before I can swallow either side's bs long enough to see the roses they're offering. All that being said I'm already dissappointed in DLC I haven't even played. I mean crossbows.... so now skyrim has a most likely semi difficult to use fps element (If they put in the COD right click zoom I will most likely puke. If they don't it's just like the bow, save that you can modify stats I suppose and now you'll need bolts instead of arrows, which would be irritating I imagine)... I just dont see it as a big deal at all... and snow elves... maybe it'll make me hate the nords or something but if not I don't see much to get excited about there either... I think the game designers need to take their collective heads out of the freezer... they know what we all want and regardless of order they should give us that instead of snow elves. I mean snow elves... really.... I feel silly just saying it... oh well here's to hoping it's far better than I expect and a big thanks to everyone who's already posted here I have thoroughly enjoed it. Edited May 12, 2012 by hafnerwwh

[windumaster14]

Wow, what a fantastic thread you guys have going here! I've been debating in my head for quite sometime now which side in the civil war to choose, and this thread firmly cements my belief in the Legion. Here's one of my arguments in favor of the Empire on a forum that seems to be wholly inactive.

 

"My first time playing Skyrim, I decided to go Stormcloak because the Empire and Thalmor seemed one in the same. But as time went on, I realized the racism that pervades most Stormcloaks, and that they only respect Nords, and only look out for Nords. Everyone else can be eradicated for all they care. Ulfric is a power hungry tyrant who kills any man, woman, and child who doesn’t support him. (There is a book in the game that talks about his execution of children) Once I sided with the Empire, I immediately saw a difference in the way I viewed them. Hadvar in the beginning tries to reason with the Stormcloaks in the keep, but they simply attack him out of primitive hatred.

 

You also encounter Legate Rikke, a Nord of the Empire, who hints at how much she hates the Thalmor. If you talk to certain Legates in the Imperial camps, you’ll find out about their disdain of the Thalmor. The Imperials don’t like the Thalmor. But as it stands, it’s either appease them or have the Empire decimated by Aldmeri forces. The peace agreement is the only thing stopping the Dominion from razing Skyrim and all its inhabitants. Skyrim is ONE nation. The Aldmeri Dominion is SEVERAL. If Skyrim were to stand on its own, they would be enslaved by the Thalmor and broken. Their land would be utterly destroyed, and their people devoid of hope for freedom.

The best option would be for Ulfric to combine his forces with the Empire’s, bolster the strength of an established army with soldiers in more places than just Skyrim. Biding their time and restoring their strength is the best option. Skyrim has no chance against the Dominion on its own. Only through the Empire can SKyrim, and ALL of Tamriel, be freed from their elvish oppressors."

 

I think bigmagy1981 said it best here. Anybody who wants to attack Jarl B is definitely somebody with ulterior motives, not someone who has the best interests of Skyrim at heart. His hold is neutral, does not support the Thalmor, and, in fact, ALLOWS OPEN WORSHIP of Talos. It seems to me that while Balgruuf isn't a Stormcloak, his actions speak louder than any title that could be bestowed upon him. The way he serves his hold is exactly in line with the Stormcloak "purpose", he just does it in a more conservative, thought-out manner. So, why, after all this has been established, does Ulfric want to oust him, and publicly disgrace him, and kill more people? I think common sense says POWER. Ulfric is a bigot, power-hungry, and cares NOTHING for any race other than Nords. I'd gladly lop off his head.

 

Now, somebody else said that the Empire is corrupt because we all agree that Titus Mede II has lived past his usefulness to his subjects, and somehow thinks that HE is the embodiment of the Empire. That has GOT to be the most ignorant line of thinking I've ever heard. Let me give you a scenario: A government has been prosperous for thousands of years, and the nations under its rule have been positively affected from having served under it. Then, a civil war happens, thousands of people die, and the current ruler of this government thinks in the interest of survival, a peace treat should be signed to prevent further bloodshed, and some extreme demands from the aggressor have to be met to appease them. 30 years pass, and then people start saying that this government should be disbanded because of how horrible it is and that it is inherently evil and corrupt. So, by this logic, 30 years of rough living should overrule THOUSANDS of years of prosperity? That's a bit short-sighted if I do say so myself.

 

Titus Mede II was useful to the Empire in the sense that he preserved its existence. He made a tough choice, and in the end, it allowed humans to rule themselves rather than let their lives be completely dictated by elves. Now, in his old age, he's grown much too conservative and complacent to be of any use to his people, which is completely understandable. He's seen the Empire brought to the brink of non-existence, war on a planetary scale, and MUCH death and bloodshed. Who can blame him for wanting to prevent that from happening again?

 

But it's gotten really bad. He now is exercising apathy to a dangerous level. He simply wants live in this fantasy world where there is no war between the elves and the Empire, even though the hostility is evident. He wants no part in being responsible for more deaths, and is willing to let the Empire dissolve under Aldmeri rule to achieve that end.

 

This is why he must be thrown out of office, by any means possible. The Empire needs a new ruler, who understands that a war with the Thalmor is inevitable, and the fight must be taken to them with as many soldiers under his command as possible. The Empire needs a ruler who will openly detest the White-Gold-Concordat. In doing that, he will gain the support and respect from both Hammerfell and Skyrim, simultaneously. With an army of Stormcloaks already assembled for the sole purpose of fighting the Thalmor, and the same army from Hammerfell that drove back the Aldmeri Dominion 30 years ago, combined with the entire Imperial Legion, The Empire has a real chance of defeating the Thalmor. Not only that, but men reproduce and mature MUCH faster than elves do, so that means MUCH more in the way of soldiers than the Aldmeri Dominion.

 

In conclusion, The Empire, with a new, charismatic ruler, can rally other nations of men to throw of the shackles of oppression. Just because the leader of a government has become useless, doesn't mean everyone else in that government who serves him has followed suit. Tiber Septim founded the Empire, and with a ruler that openly accepts him, the Empire can finally destroy the radical Thalmor, and live as Talos intended them to. Long live the Empire!

[YsmirNord]

I just want to say one thing: I think the Stormcloaks and Imperial should team up to fight against the Thalmor, I think the Thalmor are not really hating Talos. They just know how important he is to the nord people and that they eventually would raise up against the Imperials, that means a civil that weakens Skyrim, if the Stormcloaks win there will be 3 nations controlled by men, hostile Skyrim is then probably separeting High Rock from Cyrodiil completly and that means the Thalmor can easily conquer the 4 nations.

I probbely think there should be an option during season uneding where you can present the thalmor dossiers about Ulfric to everyone.

Maybe the Imperials can get Black Marsh and Morrowind to help 'em by promesing them to not attack them afterwarths

PS: sorry for my bad spelling, please don't read this with an accent, I try really hard :-)

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

Edited May 13, 2012 by YsmirNord

[StormHammer81]

Heheh right on Ysmir. One last post and I'm out... Found this little gem online and couldn't resist...

 

OMG it's a dying Empire! It's AWFUL boo-hoo-hoo Check this out:

 

http://www.google.com/imgres?start=310&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1920&bih=908&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=gwV4Lwr7LdndCM:&imgrefurl=http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Tamriel&docid=3Oi07TM_QQ0bNM&imgurl=http://images.wikia.com/elderscrolls/images/c/c7/Tamriel_4E.png&w=1861&h=1202&ei=1S6wT46_LYKE8ASSgaHWCA&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=378&sig=102910195303315026877&page=6&tbnh=133&tbnw=180&ndsp=58&ved=1t:429,r:84,s:310,i:121&tx=115&ty=27

 

Skyrim is going to take on the Dominion and *probably* Argonia (They allied with the Thalmor at one point but then turned on them... well the Argonians are Opportunists after all right?) all by themselves... YEAH!!! Sounds like suicide to me.

 

Somehow I still get the feeling Hammerfell could be persuaded to rejoin the Empire. However, such an enterprise would take at least the resignation of Titus Mede, Re-unification of Skyrim, Destruction of North Watch Keep, Heavy pressure being applied to the Thalmor in Skyrim and somehow abolishing the WGC.

 

Another thing too, I feel that if Ulfric was as Valiant and Noble as he and his crew say he is, then why use the voice on Torygg, who wasn't as skilled as Ulfric. The challenge between them was legal however, the manner in which it was fought was NOT legitimate. Why do you think Ulfric had little Rogvir hold the gate open for him? He knew what he was doing. Which is another reason why Ulfric didn't just ask Torygg to declare Independence. The shout shouldn't have been used in that manner either.

 

Don't get me wrong, I respect and understand where the Stormcloaks are coming from. But Ulfric is too dangerous and shifty. The Empire on the other hand, is set in stone and could be fixed by someone with enough ambition and influence. You are well within your right to take vengeance on the Empire for what happened at Helgen and for the Thalmor's activities. However, seeing how there are still good people in the Empire who don't agree with the corruption and evil in it, wanting change, by taking revenge on the Empire you take revenge on them as well. Which is what the Thalmor want. Of course the Empire most certainly has it's problems too.

Edited May 16, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[SirSpart]

Well, i havent read all of it , but ill give my opinion.

 

Its all on Ulfric's dossier, but i've written it anyway:

 

1. On Ulfric Stormcloak: After going through this forum, we can say he is a power thirsty little brigand and wants to have all of Skyrim on his platter. He takes the worship of 'Talos' as a common connection with the people to stirr them up for a rebellion. If the Thalmor were wise, they sure would be helping Ulfric out, ill tell later why.

 

2. On Imperials: Now, these guys have been established by Ysmir/Talos/Tiber Septim/Ysgramor etc. and have been stable for a long time. They are also open to diversity, while Ulfric and his men HATE non-nords. The power-thirsty Aldmeri Dominion turns to the Empire and hence began the 'Great War'. The white concordat was signed to stop the bloodshed, and these elves are pretty smart.

 

- They banned worship of 'Talos' so that Ulfric Stormcloak could find a reason to spark a rebellion and FURTHER WEAKEN THE EMPIRE.

 

- This is DIVIDE AND RULE!

 

3. Now comes the Decision: If you support Stormcloaks, Stormcloaks win, the empire is weakened, and BOOM the Aldmers forget about the concordat and destroy the empire. They might even take revenge for driving their brothers, the snow elves, down into the ground.

 

If you support the Empire, its the only hope you can have Against the Aldmers and win the war, the REAL war, that b/w Aldmeri Dominion and the Empire.

 

Although, it does feel bad when you are killing people who have 'National Freedom and Talos Worship!' in their eyes. But, doing that is better than seeing the last of all pink-skinned people. I know the game does not extend THAT much into the future, but ur decision is urs.

Edited May 14, 2012 by SirSpart

[DKhanno]

Stormcloaks, every time.

 

Granted this late after release it shouldn't be necessary, but warning, spoilers in commentary.

 

1) I will support anyone who fights for religious freedom.

2) I will support anyone seeking the right to rule themselves, for better or for worse.

3) I will support anyone who want others to leave them the hell alone.

 

One thing this game does extremely well is give you Gray and Gray morality. (One outside Example is the situation of the Blades hate of Parthurnaax) Both sides suck in their own special way. The Empire is doing the bidding of the Dominion, whether they like it or not does not matter, we are judged by our actions and results, not by our intentions. I wouldn't go black and white and say the Stormcloaks are completely racist, more isolationist. They do not want any outsider in their land, and from their recent past these feelings are not unjustified. It is one thing to go somewhere and complain about people not wanting you there, it is another to look inward and ask yourself why you are going places where the locals don't want you.

 

If I go to Mexico and members of the Mexican Army tell me "Hey Gringo, you don't belong here." I'm not going to call them a bunch of racist shingle-cutters in return, I'm going to leave before they decide that verbal communication has not conveyed their intent. The Dark Elves got the worst end of the deal given that their homeland was destroyed and I sympathize, but in the end Skyrim is Nord land, and the Nords will decide who they do and do not want living there regardless of what anyone thinks, and anyone who thinks installing one government over another will fix that is looking with rose-colored lenses. Riisad and the other cat people are there doing business, they can leave and go home at any time. Its not as if the Argonians can't leave either if things are so intolerable.

 

Hammerfell broke away from the Empire, and made the Dominon pay dearly for trying to invade. There is no reason Skyrim cannot do the same, not to mention the sheer difficulty of trying to invade a land that cold, that inhospitable, and with a population who unanimously dislikes the presence of outsiders. (History has taught this lesson several times to leaders who try to invade Russia.) Not to mention after throwing off the Empire, while they have lost men doing so thoe that remain are battle-hardened veterans who will be fighting with the home-court advantage.

 

In so far as Ulfric, it was stated best actually in Mass Effect 3 (and I'm paraphrasing here) Ulfric is concerned with the big picture, not individual people, but the big picture is made up of little pictures, which he has forgotten to look at. Hearing what the man has been through in game I don't think he is power-hungry at all, I believe he has his sights set on his big picture, (ie Skyrim's freedom) and will do anything necessary to obtain it. He went to war for the Empire, fought for them, lost friends in their service, only to have them turn around, and ban his religion, levy heavy taxes on his people, and make them obey the very force he lost so much fighting. (Again, why the Empire does it does not matter, we are judged by our deeds, not our motivations). In so far as those who think the Empire would one day take the fight back to the Elves, I advise reading the Declaration of Indepence. A nice little line about people suffering ills so long as they are sufferable, well the Empire seems to consider the elves sufferable.

 

As for Ulfric killing the High King, again his goal is to bring about a free Skyrim, if Torygg was unwilling (or unable) to do so, then new leadership was necessary. As far as his use of the voice in the fight, when its a fight to the death, you fight to win, do not be fair, do not be sporting, cheat if necessary, because if you die...well that's it, your ass is dead and all you hoped to accomplish is moot.

 

Now don' get me wrong, I don't love the Stormcloaks, or Ulfric, to me they are simply the cause with which my internal morals most align. I dislike Windhelm's treatment of the dark elves and the argonians, and it shows Ulfric is not the most shrewd of leaders. He should have been offering the elves and the argonians land in parts of Skyrim in exchange for their people's service in his army. This has been a common practice throughout history.

I did not like that siding with the Stormcloaks meant betraying the Jarl of Whiterun. I certainly did not like some of those with whom Ulfric and the Stormcloaks were aligned (like the Silver-Bloods) but sadly to accomplish big things often means having to treat with....not nice people. It is the way of the world, and a corrupt local leader is easier to....dispense with than a distant one.

What really makes me want to put an axe in Ulfric's face is the way he talks to Elisiff during the peace conference, he's already slain her husband, barking at, and mocking the widow is a bit much. Granted she is one of the other reasons I support the Stormcloaks, she's what, 12? She let's Tulius do her talking (and it seems her thinking) for her, and it is shown fairly clearly that Falk Firebeard is running Solitude, not her (shown especially clearly when her advisors contradict her in open court, and she immediately bows to their ideas rather than showing any fortitude in her own decisions). Does not really seem to me that she is capable of the responsibility of ruling a nation. Ulfric may be an ass, but he's experienced, he's capable, and when he makes a decision he commits to it.

 

In so far as Ulfric making you do a petty task to join, he doesn't Galmar does. Galmar is the General, and he tests you to see if A) You will survive the test and B) If you are willing to do what you are told. This is not uncommon in real-life militaries, in more than one Special Operations force, it is common practice to turn potential recruits away multiple times to see if they posses the will and fortitude to keep coming back. At least he doesn't ask you to take out an entire fort of bandits all by your lonesome.

 

The only thing the Empire has going for it (in my eyes) is strength in numbers, but if it is not strong enough to supress rebellion in its own territory (be it Hammerfell or Skyrim) its not really strong enough to fight off its enemies anyway, now is it? A new Skyrim can possibly grow into something new from the ashes of what was, or at the very least be too inhospitable to foreign invaders for them to claim it.

 

I keep replaying the game intending to make different choices, but the two things I can't seem to do are join the Legion, or kill Parthurnaax.