The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[YsmirNord]

Well, if anyone sais that empire is (or was) strong enough to defeat the Thalmor and then joins the stormcloaks and weaken the Empire is kinda stupid if you know what I mean, what you are saying then is 'the empire is the only thing that can save us from the thalmor, let's destroy it!'.

The choice is yours:

Join the Stormcloaks: for 0-30 years: freedom of religion , independance :), rascism :(, from 30 years to forever: being conquered by the Thalmor that could easily take on the 4 separate nations of human and every human dies D':

Join the Imperials: for 0-30 years: banned worship of Talos (according to the smith Alvor everyone has their own secret shrine to Talos) D:, no racism :), from 30 years to forever: WWII, Imperials win: everything above exept racism and Thalmor control (in a certain way independance, but independance of the human nation).

Conclusion: join the Imperials but try to kill as less stormcloaks you can kill. They and their children will make good motivated soldiers in WWII.

[StormHammer81]

@DKhanno

 

The Empire is strong enough to defeat anyone. Empire's lost some land, OK, big deal. To be honest, the land we lost wasn't worth holding onto in the first place, lol. Really, the Empire is better off being trimmed down to what it is now as it's more manageable and stable, although still, we really need Hammerfell back. This s*** about "Oh it's a decaying and dying Empire" is not accurate. The only thing that is really wrong with the Empire is Titus Mede. He's the one calling the shots and he's the one whose making these bad decisions. Ulfric is capitalizing on the Empire's losses and this sad situation for his own personal gain.

 

He ratted the Empire out to the Thalmor, murdered a kid so that he could have a shot at being High King, he's considered an asset to the Thalmor, lol, he's just a pawn - Not a leader. Don't you think the Thalmor have plans for Skyrim if it secedes from the Empire? Elves are always thinking ahead.

 

Also, what happened at Helgen was mistake. Tullius gave orders to have the Stormcloak's leadership executed for their acts of terrorism against the Empire. Just like how we killed Bin Laden, no difference. When the Stormcloaks engaged in acts of Terrorism and Sedition they forfeited their rights as citizens. The Imperial Captain was told there was no one but Stormcloaks to be executed and then assumed you were a Stormcloak, trying to lie your way out of justice. The reason for torture probably has something to do with Markarth, as the Stormcloaks raped, murdered, pillaged, plundered and otherwise tore Markarth apart during the Markarth incident. They probably figure, if you guys are going to act like animals, we're going to treat you like one.

 

Personally, if Talos had a say in this, I think he would rather people revere him and his work while he was a mortal, rather than worship him. The Thalmor want the Empire of Talos gone. That is a big obstacle for them in taking Tamriel. Your clean righteous Stormcloaks are too much like the Thalmor. It's like two sides to the same coin really.

 

So given what Ulfric did at Markarth, you know... you keep talking about how Baaad the Empire is... then when Ulfric starts executing and exiling and murdering non-Nords or people who didn't support his uprising in the Civil War (like he did before), that's ok. Because that's what you're going to get. Except this time it'll be an entire country. I said this once and I'll say it again, Ulfric is Not High King material.

 

Like Legate Rikke basically said, if Ulfric gets his way it'll just be more Civil War and more violence because people in Skyrim are Not going to want to leave their homes, their businesses, their children or abandon their very lives just because Ulfric has Racial / Personal issues.

 

Lastly, this situation is not as cut and dry as you make it seem like. The Empire didn't want the WGC, Titus Mede II did. It's so typical of the Religious crowd to go on a Witch-hunt or one of their self-righteous tantrums spreading blame and damnation instead of really thinking about the situation and what really is happening. Yes, there were some wrongs committed by Titus Mede II. But, at least he made his decision to try and protect lives and restore order. Ulfric on the other hand, is going to War for his agenda and to feed his personal hate for the Empire. Granted I am a Christian myself, however if this was the US and we had some zealous Governor start invading his neighbors and murdering them in the name of Religion, I would Not follow him even then.

 

Just listen to what a brat he is during the negotiations on High Hrothgar. "Tullius is like, let's stop this insanity and maybe we can..." Ulfric - "No, noooo, I want to everything my waaay waaa, I should never have come here, waaaaa..."

 

I follow no man and if you're willing to follow an arrogant, childish, selfish, blood-thirsty sycophant be my guest.

Edited June 15, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[HeyYou]

I still like IKE :D

 

You're dating yourself ya know....... :D

[grannywils]

@DKhanno, I just want to say that I have never heard anyone put forth his position better than you just did. It was so well presented and well thought out, that you have me thinking about it now.. Very good job.:thumbsup:

[StormHammer81]

@HeyYou

 

Been there. Done that. Once upon a time it was fun, but I'm older now and it's too many games and dishonesty. Oh and the "friends" are always the worst. So is the mother. They're both selfish, reckless and inconsiderate. Personally I'd rather die an old man in peace than live a lie. And in this country everyone has to look and act "normal" pfff unless of course you're one of the uhhh "Better People." :wallbash:

 

@grannywils

 

Not bad. Only thing is the Markarth incident. I was going to go Stormcloak too until I read, "The Bear of Markarth" and talked to some of the people in The Reach. Hehehe old dude should change his flag from a Bear to a Skull and Crossbones. The Reachman can't worship their Gods but Ulfric MUST be allowed to worship his... :pirate:

Edited May 21, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Aurielius]

There are a lot of sentiments dealing with Ulfric's sense of honor, but if he was so honorable why didn't he just send his Axe to declare his intent as a true Nord would? Nope he walks in to the Blue Palace under the code of hospitality which he then proceeds to violate and utilize the voice to kill a stripling boy king. At least General Tullius has a moral code that he abides by and for all intents and purposes he is the only real representative of the empire that you deal with. Ulfric on the other hand when sent a challenge doesn't meet it in single combat as he should by the code of Nord chivalry but sends his minions to attack Whiterun and is no where in evidence in the battle. Ulfric commands from the rear Tulius commands from the front, give me a commander that fights in the line any day. Edited May 21, 2012 by Aurielius

[StormHammer81]

Double Post My Bad!!! :facepalm: Edited May 21, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Kamezen]

Imperials. I had done a lot of considering before choosing them, but there's no real good side to the Stormcloaks, If you bother to look at them. Ulfric killed Torygg as an act of terrorism, and even says as such, and the Imperials are much more honorable. It's not as if they stopped worshiping Talos, they do it in secret, to protect the whole of Skyrim. And, i f we're being honest, there's no way the Stormcloaks can begin to be a challenge to the Thalmor. The Thalmor's resources are almost unlimited, while Stormcloaks have control over Skyrim at most.

[wdrewjr]

As I stated in my previous posts, I believe that the ONLY chance of defeating the Aldmeri Dominion is for the Civil War to stop before it goes any further. Otherwise no matter who wins the Nord forces will be so weakened as to either be of no help to the Empire or in defending themselves. I also believe that the tools have already been included in the game to allow for either a DLC or mod of a new ending that would not only solve this problem, but take Tamriel in a new direction. Here goes, but be warned, there are spoilers ahead for those not very far in the main quest:

 

 

 

 

 

At the meeting at High Hrothgar where the temporary truce is supposed to be negotiated, the following option becomes available if :

1. You have found Ulfric's Dossier at the Aldmeri Embassy.

2. You have at least the Persuasion perk.

3. You are the Thane of every hold in Skyrim except Eastmarch

4. You grant Ulfric's request to exclude the Thalmore Ambassador from the meeting.

 

You then inform all assembled of the Thalmor plot to weaken Skyrim as a precurser to attacking the Empire, presenting the dossier as proof. You ask both sides to cease fighting and hold in place (defending the areas where they are from dragon attacks) while you deal with the dragon problem at the source. Both sides grudgingly agree. You deal with Alduin and then return to the Greybeards to find that the cease fire has been broken and the bulk of both forces are converging on Whiterun. You tell Arngeir you have a plan, but first you have to go and gather some friends. Also, you need a BIG favor from him and the other monks.

 

A cut scene immediately takes you to the battle about to begin at Whiterun, with both sides charging at each other. But before they begin the skies fill with the roar of numerous dragons, and rows of fire scorch the ground between the forces, preventing them from reaching each other. Both sides stop in place and watch the dragons circle overhead. One breaks away and lands nearby. It is Paarthurnax, and you dismount from him. As you approach the armies you are joined by Ulfric, General Tullius and all of the other Jarl's of Skyrim. You inform the Jarls of the information revealed in the cease fire negotiation (that the Thalmor are the true enemy we must unite against), and yet despite this General Tullius and Ulfric have chosen to continue fighting each other. Tullius and Ulfric blame each other, and the other Jarls look displeased. Then you tell them that you have a solution that will appease all. The Empire will remove all non-Nord troops from Skyrim immediately. Skyrim will no longer be a provence of the Empire, or allow others to dictate how they will live and govern themselves. But Nords are loyal, especially to friends, And the Empire has been a friend to Skyrim for many centuries. Skyrim wil now stand side-by-side as allies against the Aldmeri Dominion, or any other enemies that they may face. General Tullius is reluctant to accept this, and wants to know how he can be sure that the new High King of Skyrim will abide by this. Ulfric states that he is the High King and will never defend Imperials. You tell him that he isn't High King until approved by the assembled Jarls, and that you now officially request to be named the High King of Skyrim. When asked you state your credentials:

 

1. You are a Thane of 8 of the 9 holds of Skyrim.

2. You are the Dragonborn, chosen by Akatosh.

3. As Dragonborn, you are the spiritual heir of Talos.

 

All Jarls except Ulfric vote yes. If you have the Intimidate perk Ulfric will back down and accept you. If not, then he states he and his hold will never support you. You then challenge him to a fight for the High Kingship, which he has to accept as it is his only viable claim to the throne. He tells you that only a Jarl can challenge another Jarl in this way. You then reveal the coversation you had with Arngeir. High Hrothgar has always been acknowledged as being neutral in political matters, so for practical purposes it has no Jarl. Until now. The Greybeards have named you the Jarl of High Hrothgar. Ulfric attempts to dispute this when you ask him if he's afraid to fight someone who's actually prepared to fight, and this goads him into attacking you. After you defeat him you talk to General Tullius and tell him to take this message to the Emperor: A new day is dawning in Tamriel. No longer will people allow distant empires dictate to them how they will live. He needs to accept this new reality in order that the wonderful things the Empire brings to Tamriel may survive. He should try to mend relations with the Redgards, and approach former allies in Elsweyr and Valenwood to see if they want to be in the Dominion, or would like help in becoming independant. There is also a final scene where you thank Paarthurnax for his help, and state that he and all the other dragons are welcome in Skyrim as long as they don't attack any of the inhabitants of Skyrim or their settlements. Paarthurnax thanks you, but says that perhaps it's best if they are alone for a time. He and all of the other dragons then leave.

 

 

Thoughts?

[HeyYou]

That would make an awesome mod.......