The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[PharmakosChroster]

I'm an old-school anarchist (mutualist with syndicalist and insurrectionist sympathies) and a card-carrying Wobbly. I always have a great deal of trouble with Elder Scroll games, since every choice seems to lead to authoritarianism. In Oblivion, for example, I was annoyed that I couldn't side with Mehrunes Dagon and bring down the Empire. Now I have the opportunity to take the fight to the Empire, but only by supporting the racist, ultra-nationalist Nord Tea Party and their two-faced social-climbing bigot of a war leader, Ulfric "Who dares to approach a jarl?" Stormcloak. What I *really* want is a mod which lets me choose neither side. Or rather, which allows me to stick my iron boot up the ass of BOTH the Stormcloaks and the Imperials as I march grimly from jarl to jarl, crushing heads and liberating cities.

 

In fact, this is exactly the course that Nestor Makhno - the famous Ukrainian anarchist - chose. His army, the Makhnovshchina refused to side with either the Whites (the Czarists) or the Reds (the Bolsheviks), and fought to free Ukraine from ALL authoritarian rule, either left or right. He and his army would raid a town and execute all the landlords, take half the city's supplies, then turn the town over to an autonomous soviet elected by the people of the town, answerable to no one but themselves. With just 50,000 men with whatever supplies they could capture, Makhno drove out 600,000 professionally-trained German soldiers, then cut off Czarist supply lines when they tried to cross Ukraine to attack the Bolsheviks. When Trotsky ordered the Makhnovshchina to lay down their weapons, their response was to execute Trotsky's messenger.

 

I would love to be able to live out my Makhnovist fantasies in Skyrim, bringing death and terror to both Empire and Stormcloaks as I free the weary people from their yokes as they form worker cooperatives to operate the shops and farms. Sadly, short of a mod beyond my abilities to make, there doesn't seem to be any way to permanently kill Tullius and Ulfric both.

 

(Here's a recruitment poster I did for a server running a Star Wars mod for Freelancer. Serve neither Emperor nor Princess! Death to the Empire AND the Republic!)

 

 

Edited July 13, 2012 by PharmakosChroster

[imperistan]

Rikke: "Attention! General Tullius has an announcement!"

 

Tullius: "The rebellion is over. Ulfric Stormcloak is dead. His head will be sent to Cyrodiil where it will adorn a spike on the walls of the Imperial City. Let this day be a final warning to all who would still call themselves Stormcloaks. We are turning the city over to Brunwulf Free-Winter, an honorable and faithful man. Many of you will be staying in Windhelm to aid the Jarl in restoring order and stamping out any embers of rebellion that may still smolder here. In appreciation for your exemplary service, I am doubling your pay and compensation to the widows of your fallen comrades. I am proud of all of you. All hail the Emperor. All hail his Legionnaires! I hate giving speeches."

 

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/690522-who-are-the-good-guys-in-this-war/page__st__510

 

http://static.skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/images/12479-1-1331321311.jpg

 

Funny that you do that when no one won. The mods closed the topic, big difference.

[DKhanno]

@Bigamy1981

 

The Empire is strong enough to defeat anyone

 

---Yeah, cause they did such a good job of putting down a rebellion in Hammerfell, or putting down rebellion in Skyrim without the Dragonborn's help, and they've done such an excellent job in kicking out the Thallmor and wiping their postierors with the 'peace' treaty.

 

He ratted the Empire out to the Thalmor

 

--The man broke under torture while a prisoner of war, no matter how high and mighty we might like to think ourselves, anyone breaks if tortured long enough and hard enough.

 

They probably figure, if you guys are going to act like animals, we're going to treat you like one.

 

--At least you've openly surrendered any attempt at the moral highground.

 

Personally, if Talos had a say in this, I think he would rather people revere him and his work while he was a mortal, rather than worship him.

 

--I did not realize that you and Talos had coffee together and debated world events.

 

when Ulfric starts executing and exiling and murdering non-Nords or people who didn't support his uprising in the Civil War

 

--If Ulfric was out to kill anyone who was not a nord simply for not being a nord the dark elves living in Windhelm's slums wounldn't be there...they'd have been executed under suspicion of aiding the Empire the moment there were no Imperial troops around to protect them.

 

Lastly, this situation is not as cut and dry as you make it seem like

 

--That you would say I made the situation cut and dry reveals you only skimmed my post rather than reading the entire entry and assimilating its meaning.

 

Like Legate Rikke basically said, if Ulfric gets his way it'll just be more Civil War and more violence because people in Skyrim are Not going to want to leave their homes, their businesses, their children or abandon their very lives just because Ulfric has Racial / Personal issues.

 

--Yeah, cause no one has ever said anything that wasn't 100% correct about their enemy before have they? Rikke has no more insight into the future than anyone else, and siding with the Empire and crushing the Stormcloaks is in no way an assurance there will not be more anarachy, an idea cannot be killed and the idea of the Empire being out of Skyrim has spread far and wide.

 

And in regars to the constant remarks about Ulfric's bad character as a person, I will point out that he is the only Jarl who does not refer to the people of his town as "common rabble" when you are made a Thane. Even the fair Elisiff does so.

 

Just listen to what a brat he is during the negotiations on High Hrothgar. "Tullius is like, let's stop this insanity and maybe we can..." Ulfric - "No, noooo, I want to everything my waaay waaa, I should never have come here, waaaaa..."

 

--Its called showing contempt for your enemies, not exactly uncommon, and Ulfric's words are no worse than Tulius veiled insults toward the player's impartiality when any concession is made to Ulfric at all.

 

I follow no man and if you're willing to follow an arrogant, childish, selfish, blood-thirsty sycophant be my guest.

 

--Then you are someone who believes in nothing, or has no aspirations to anything larger than yourself (and likely unemployed). And if you wish to side with a 12-year old girl who obviously lacks the iron to be the leader her title entails, grovel at the feet of a decaying Empire, and wait for the day of conflict when a weak-kneed Emperor sells out his people once again, more power to you.

 

Oh, that's right, you follow no one, so I guess you don't take part in the civil war at all since both sides have a leader whom you would be by definition following if you went on the missions they task you with.

Edited July 13, 2012 by DKhanno

[StormHammer81]

You're welcome DKhanno, I did it for you buddy! Was thinking about you the entire time. :hurr:

 

If you want to know where I'm coming from, then read my posts. I mean, you're free to do what you will, however the above "post" is very biased and he's left out some things. And besides, they're all REALLY pissed at me because of what Kraeten and I accomplished on the other forum (aka "WWF" or "Smackdown", whichever one you prefer) :dance: :dance: :dance:

 

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/690522-who-are-the-good-guys-in-this-war/page__st__510 :ninja:

 

More importantly however, this is a Victory for ALL the Imperial voices out there who have in the past been harshly silenced and kicked to the curb by some of the more pretentious Stormcloak sympathizers amongst us. :armscrossed:

 

This is one of the bad things about War. When we reach a point where we can't settle our difference and respect each other, there becomes no choice but to fight it out. :facepalm:

 

I would like to say one last time, I would love for nothing more than the Imperials and Stormcloaks to have resolved their differences at the peace table, but it wasn't meant to be. I respect Ulfric but I don't think him becoming High King is worth the loss of the Empire. :thumbsup:

 

AND after the Thalmor have been put back in their place and Tamriel is secure once again, then let the provinces decide if they want to temporarily dissolve the current Imperial command structure and just focus on healing themselves and going their separate ways for a spell, I'd be all for it. Just not with the Thalmor waiting at the gates and not this way. It will have to be done eventually. Let the Empire take care of the Thalmor first, once and for all time, then everyone can go on vacation. :D

 

Furthermore, my Duty here is done. :wallbash:

 

We did win. Deal with it. It was a War and we won. Well, you guys made such a big deal over the poll numbers so... tough! :devil:

 

Goodbye 4 Ever, Talos be with you !!!

 

Kraeten is the MAN! Never Surrender!!! :biggrin:

 

ALL HAIL THE EMPIRE OF TALOS :dance: :dance: :dance:

 

 

 

http://static.skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/images/12479-1-1331321311.jpg

 

The Battle Near Whiterun by ezhov - Used under permission.

Edited October 24, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[imperistan]

Bigmagy just makes me facepalm sometimes. :rolleyes:

[TH3L33TB34T]

Simple arguement to propose, What is the legion striving for? Unification against a threat that could definitely destroy existince as they know it. Stormcloaks are pretty much just being that douchebag in between them and their goal to help stop the threat.

[marharth]

Can't you wait for a revolution? Not a great time for civil disorder, considering all the dragons and Nazi elves.

[Kallthor]

If the guy holding the flag in the picture above is supposed to be the Dovahkiin, then there's two things wrong with it:

 

- He's not black haired.

- He's not a damn imperial.

 

Well, it's wrong if you're still trying to be canon. If it's non-canon, then hell yeah, awesome pic.

 

Reasons to help the stormcloaks:

 

- The stormcloaks have a noble cause - ridding their homeland from the imperial oppressors, and eventually defeating their ultimate enemy - the Aldmeri Dominion.

- The stormcloaks are honorable, true, honest and inspired by their cause. They stick to their beliefs and never surrender. Not even when simply believing in something is punishable by death.

- The stormcloaks are stronger than the imperials. I've actually tested this. I've spawned the same number of imperials and stormcloaks and the stormcloaks won 100% (without my help).

 

- The stormcloaks are led by an epic noble warlord who is willing to give up his life if it means liberating Skyrim from the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion.

- When the stormcloaks go to battle, they cry out: For Skyrim! I don't ever hear those pompous flat-lander imperials saying that. Instead they yell: For the Empire! The stormcloaks fight for the freedom of their land, whereas imperials fight for the glory of their corrupt Empire.

 

 

Reasons to go against the Empire:

 

- They tried to chop your damn head off even if you're weren't on their damn list, and even if you didn't break any of their damn laws. It was on the very beginning of the game for f***'s sake.

- The Empire is a shadow of it's former self. This is not the the true, mighty, Oblivion-Empire which was led by the Septim dynasty, this is a fake, corrupt shell of a dying Empire which is led by the Mede Dynasty which seized the throne by force.

- The Empire outlaws the worship of Talos, the very man who founded the Empire. I'm non-religious, but I can put myself in the victim shoes when it comes to religious oppression. Imagine your homeland under occupation and the worship of your prophet/messiah/God strictly outlawed. Would you be okay with that?

- The Legion is led by a coward general who has absolutely no regard for any interests but his own. I've played through the imperial campaign with a different character and at the end, General Tullius says he will mount Ulfric's head on a spike. A tad barbaric, no? I don't remember Ulfric saying anything like that about Tullius after he killed him.

- Even General Tullius' sidekick, the head legate, Rikke is unsure of her allegiance and often sympathizes with the stormcloaks. It's no secret that she has a constant guilty conscience about what she's doing in her life. Whereas Ulfric's right hand man, Galmar-Stonefist is confident of his allegiance and he knows deep in his heart and mind that he's doing the right thing.

 

 

Reasons not to be with the Stormcloaks:

 

- Ulfric and his men drove the Forsworn out of their homeland. Although even this is excused because the Forsworn posed a threat for the nords, instead of agreeing to live together peacefully.

 

 

Bottom line - The factions are a bit grayer than most, but I'd definitely say that the Imperials are more evil than the Stormcloaks are good. No two factions can have the same level of grayness. And as it turns out, the stormcloaks are bit brighter than their enemies, and it's pretty obvious if you're not blinded by imperial propaganda.

 

Btw, DKhanno owned everyone. Kudos to him.

 

And cheers to everybody! :)

Edited July 18, 2012 by Kallthor

[imperistan]

Can't you wait for a revolution? Not a great time for civil disorder, considering all the dragons and Nazi elves.

 

Its the civil disorder that calls for revolution. At least in regards to the Dominion anyway. The Dragon Invasion generally isn't the same kind of issue as the Dominion (namely because there isn't a prophesied savior that will destroy the Dominion threat as there is with the Dragon invasion), and every side is dealing with it regardless of the other issues at hand.

[marharth]

Can't you wait for a revolution? Not a great time for civil disorder, considering all the dragons and Nazi elves.

 

Its the civil disorder that calls for revolution. At least in regards to the Dominion anyway. The Dragon Invasion generally isn't the same kind of issue as the Dominion (namely because there isn't a prophesied savior that will destroy the Dominion threat as there is with the Dragon invasion), and every side is dealing with it regardless of the other issues at hand.

Yea well it would be easier to deal with both of them if the empire wasn't weakened by a war. It takes years to set up a new government and to build a new army.