The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[Mopar63]

Okay been reading through this and thought I would add my thoughts on this topic for what they are worth.

 

First a bit of history, the Nords have had issues with the other races for some time. They had the fact that early on they were slaughtered by elves and then came back and did the same. There is a built in distrust of the other races, then add in the efforts of the Thalmor and it is easy to see why this distrust exists.

 

Next we have the facts from the end of the Great War. The tide turned with the help of a great many Nord warriors, read the wars history they are a big part of the reason the Thalmor were stopped. Now with the Thalmor stopped a treaty is made, one of the requirements is a nonsense issue, the end of the worship of Talos. Now if the worship of Talos had been the reason they had invaded, ie a Holy War, then I could buy this as a legitimate bargaining point but that was not, from any indications their reasoning. So what was the reason for this dumb requirement? Well think about it, the Nords were a primary threat to them in the war, the turners of the tide. The Nords had the strongest tradition of Talos worship of the entire empire. This entire requirement was designed to create strife with the Nords. To ad insult to injury they also demanded the right to come into the Empire and arrest and kill it's citizens based on their own investigations of "Talos" worship. Talk about a slap in the Empires face.

 

Next we come to the Incident at Markarth, now the book in game we have on this is written by an Imperial Scholar and we have no other side to this story so we have some tainted information here. However the result is believable, given the circumstances and mind frame of the region and the people involved.

 

Where does this leave us on the war then? Well on one side we have an Empire that is desperate to hold things together, even to the point of forsaking it's people and selling them out to an enemy. On the other side we have a Jarl who is plagued with guilt for breaking to the enemy and is likely overcompensating now due to his hatred of the Thalmor. Which side makes sense to support? There is no right answer as RP is a part of the game and the role you select will define which way to go.

 

As a Nord the odds are good you will find yourself wanting to fight for your freedom with Ulfric. In the end I think he does want the best for his people and he thinks on their own they stand a better chance than with the Empire. he might not be wrong. Hammerfell was able to throw out the Thalmor once they were cut loose from the Empire, they were free to fight. This actually makes things better for the Empire because it means the Thalmor has more enemies to fight and thus weakens their ability to attack the Empire directly. From this perspective a Redguard might well side with the Nords. Not for love of Skyrim but for hatred of the Thalmor and the desire to slap the Empire for leaving them to their own devices.

 

As an Imperial you will likely side with the Empire for obvious reasons, it is home after all and a strong Empire means your family is safe. As a Breton you might side with the Empire as well, repayment to the Nords for what was done in Markarth and a chance to help the Forsworn by hurting the Nords.

 

As one of the "beast" races the choices are less clear. Helping the Empire over the Nords makes the most sense as they are more open to other races. However not helping anyone and letting them duke it out while you gather the spoils from their efforts makes even more sense. The Khajiit have a bit of a leaning toward the Thalmor and this might sway them a bit to play both sides against the middle. The Argonian and likely to just lay low as are the other elf based races.

 

In the end of course various other factors could come into play, an Imperial how is a devote of Talos might join the Rebellion or an elf with a hatred of the Thalmor. A Nord with an intense loyalty to the Empire might side with them.

 

I think however you decide that it speaks volumes that bethesda was able to create a world rich enough with options that there is no way to choose them all.

[kradus]

*facepalms again*

 

I don't see any apologies for fascists, not that I expect any, because I understand the stupidity of the statement.

 

I was reffering in game. If you know a better adjective for people who suppress foreign races and execute civilians for simply not fighting for you, then I'll apologise to a fictional millitary group and call them that instead.

[StormHammer81]

For my part, I have fought the "Good Fight" and now I think this forum has gotten completely out of hand.

 

It's just the same stuff over and over again, which is fast degenerating into personal attacks and indecent discussions about topics which are completely unrelated, inappropriate and should NEVER be joked about or taken lightly.

 

For you other pro-Imperials, I am PROUD of all of you.

 

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPEROR!!!

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

Edited February 25, 2013 by StormHammer81

[Gabryal]

*facepalms for a 3rd time*

kradus, on 25 Feb 2013 - 09:52, said:

Gabryal, on 24 Feb 2013 - 23:03, said:
*facepalms again*

I don't see any apologies for fascists, not that I expect any, because I understand the stupidity of the statement.

I was reffering in game. If you know a better adjective for people who suppress foreign races and execute civilians for simply not fighting for you, then I'll apologise to a fictional millitary group and call them that instead.

Wow. Just Wow.

Let's see. Every nation that's ever existed from the beginning of time including the US? The Irish Draft in the Civil War by the Union Leaps immediately to mind, Oh and Lincoln killing 20,000 New York civilians when they rebelled against the Draft, that seems like a suppression of foreign race. So you could call them Unionists I suppose.

The Empire has done exactly that throughout it's History dozens of times over you could call them Imperials I suppose. There isn't a nation that's ever existed on the face of this earth that hasn't suppressed foreign races.

From 1899-1902 the US killed as many as 1.5 million ​ Filipino's when they rebelled because they didn't want to be a part of our Empire. So you could call them Americans. You could add close to 20 million Native Americans to the list if you wanted.

God knows how many Indians the British Killed.

These are just things that have happened in the past 100-150 years. Just because you know of one group of people who are famously known for oppressing and executing civilians doesn't mean you get to just throw the word around when you don't understand it.

Do you even know what a Fascist is I wonder.

Here's a better word for you. Rascist; and guess what? You can't use that one either unless you're willing to call Imperials that too because they have been so at least 100 times worse since the existence of the Stormcloaks was started.

See the Stormcloaks arose as a militia ordered by The Empire Titus Mede II, same Emperor in the game, in order to among other things to take back Makath. They then were charged with holding off the Dominion while the Empire stripped Skyrim of it's Legions to save Cyrodil. They did the same thing with Hammerfell. They left the Dunmer to the mercy of the Argonians, they left the Bosmer at the Mercy of the Dominion, they abandoned the Khajit completely. All to save their Imperial asses, and anywhere at all that people rebelled against them they killed them.

Hell they were going to execute you for no particular reason aside from they found you walking alone in Skyrim trying to get to Cyrodil at the beginning of the game. Just Wow.

So there, call Stormcloaks " Imperials of the Second Worst sort " which would actually be an accurate comparison, or come up with some other grievance against them.

@StormHammer81

Pride is something to be earned from achievement, of which there has been none, rather there has been whining and false outrage and other things that people should be ashamed of, so if an Imperial wants to be proud they should definitely come up with something worth being proud about.

@Mopar63

Well reasoned, though I still find the Empire as it sits today to be despicable from the point of view of my own particular values. I think that if you were to RP those particular races correctly that would be close to where you'd end up. I would think that the Bosmer would be more likely to go against the Empire because of the Imperial betrayal of Valenwood and the Dunmer more likely to go for the Empire because of the Nord blockade of Morrowind, but these are relatively minor considerations for those particular two races. The Bretons might sit back through the entire thing because if the war continues and neither side wins, the Thalmor win, and the Bretons ( the Forsworn particularly ) have been receiving weapons and supplies from the Thalmor. The Orcs might also lean towards the Empire because a Nord win in Skyrim would leave less need of Orcs as Mercenaries, since Skyrim is unlikely by culture to hire them, but the Empire isn't ( I can't picture the Nords, who think of themselves as great warriors with a lot of Pride stooping to hiring Orcs to fill out their ranks, the Imperials however have no such qualms ). An Argonian probably would lean pro-Empire just to keep the Dominion off balance so that the Argonians could continue their wars against the Dunmer and the Khajit would probably lean anti-Imperial if only because the Empire betrayed them when they asked for help during the Crisis of the Moon and the Empire refused to help them.

Those are just little tiny RP considerations to make for those races. High Elves honestly to me are the wild card strangely enough. Why would a High Elf be in Skyrim? There is a huge number of possibilities there. Dominion Spy, Refugee, Renegade, Member of the Summerset Resistance ( can't remember what the name of them are now ). However because in Skyrim the Summerset Isles are the one's most shrouded in mystery of all the lands, it gives the most options for RP.

Incidently Stormcloak81 I'm really sick of having to go back and reread your posts when you edit them after someone has responded to them. I hope when people read through these they go back and check the times and dates of when you edit your posts.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Gabryal

[Lisnpuppy]

I suggest that you all step away from this topic and take a few deep breaths. It has gotten out of hand, off topic and personal. Everyone play nice and if you see something that you think is against the rules report it. I am very close to shutting this one down.~Lisnpuppy

[kradus]

Before Titus mede I there was no real leadership in the empire, so you can't really hold the current government responsible for what happened in the past or not. The Hammerfell situation was forced by the Dominion. You're suggesting that Titus Mede II commited the same level of atrocities as Ulfric? I'd need some facts on that. Other than slaughtering that Dominion army in the capital city and allowing Thalmor scrutiny, I dont really see what the emperor did that was so shady. Edited February 25, 2013 by kradus

[StormHammer81]

@Lisnpuppy

 

Do that please. You're going to have to because this is no longer a debate and everytime we've tried to bring everything back on point it just keeps sliding further and further downhill.

 

I was getting ready to report this anyways...

Edited February 25, 2013 by StormHammer81

[Gabryal]

Before Titus mede I there was no real leadership in the empire, so you can't really hold the current government responsible for what happened in the past or not. The Hammerfell situation was forced by the Dominion. You're suggesting that Titus Mede II commited the same level of atrocities as Ulfric? I'd need some facts on that. Other than slaughtering that Dominion army in the capital city and allowing Thalmor scrutiny, I dont really see what the emperor did that was so shady.

He also slaughtered every single citizen of the city that so much as sold the Dominion troops a loaf of bread, including the entire High Elf population, whether they were guilty of anything or not.

 

I'd also argue that signing the WGC behind the backs of the Redguards ( which gave away half their lands ) and the Nords ( which outlawed their religion ) especially after they had just helped him save his Empire was pretty shady.

 

I did a comparison awhile back between what Titus Mede II did to a comparison of " What If " the British Empire had done so in World War 2. It looks pretty different if you were to put it in perspective of say.

 

The British Government making a peace treaty with Hitler after Dunkirk that allows the SS access to Scotland to make sure that the Scots don't practice Scottish Presbyterianism and allows them to arrest any Scot that does without trial and killed. Then when the Scots rebel against this treaty the British Empire sends it's own Army into Scotland to enforce a treaty signed between themselves and Hitler.

 

Doesn't sound quite as nice in that situation, and the players are all more or less the same as far it all goes. The Dominion is at least as bad as Nazi Germany, the British Empire defeat at Dunkirk was at least as great a Military Crisis as what faced the Empire after the Battle of the Red Ring, Scotland is more or less allegorically correct in it's positioning, size, and importance relative to the size of Cyrodil ( England ).

 

In a real world situation I don't think I'd be on the side of a British Empire that thought that signing a treaty with Hitler and occupying Scotland is a good idea. By analogy I therefor don't think I'd be on the side of an Empire that would sign a treaty with the Dominion and occupy Skyrim. Analogy is always suspect, but I've analyzed this one and I'm having difficulty finding the flaws.

 

If we today were looking back at the Second World War we'd despise a British Empire who had signed a treaty with Hitler, and we'd be right to do so. Instead of what Titus Mede did, they fortunately had Churchill ( and even King George ) who agreed that they would " Never Surrender " no matter the cost.

 

That's more or less the bottom line for me. That's the short version in my opinion anyway.

[kradus]

The difference there is that Hitler was losing the war on other fronts, and Britain hadn't been occupied in any way, so they could claim whatever they wanted, like the emperor did in the beggining of the war. Exept then the Dominion ocupied hammerfell and pillaged Cyrodill, so those are 2 different scenarios.

[StormHammer81]

@kradus

 

Another thing, there were actually several contries that had treaties with Hitler and Hitler broke them all, just like what is about to happen here.