LE Turn It Back Into A RPG

[maboru]

I'm probably in the minority here but after a few hours of wandering about Skyrim and going all "OOO!...Ahhh!" I realized I felt more invested in the NPCs than in my own PC and that was preventing me from achieving a normal new game addiction. The reason for this is that I felt I didn't so much create a new character as I simply put a new name and face on Drake (or Lara Croft as the case may be.) I miss agonizing over all the character generation choices as in a traditional RPG and having only three pseudo-traits to level up with a perk thrown in makes Skyrim feel more like an Adventure game or a FPS. I know, I know,...wave of the future. However...

 

What I'd like to see (once the CS is released) is a mod that actually allows you to create a character (like in the olden days!) rather than letting the game create the character. Doing this while maintaining game balance would probably be a bear with the new layout but with a lot of modder and player input it may be achievable. Putting S.P.E.C.I.A.L. back in is probably not an option but something along those lines may be able to be implemented.

 

And those new fonts! After all the truly excellent work Beth did in creating an unbelievably good hard, dirty, gritty, warts and all Dark Age world and then tabbing out to the computer screen of the Starship Enterprise is simply too incongruous for me! I'd like to see the fonts (if not the layout) ported over from Oblivion or for those artistically inclined maybe even a whole new set. Other than that I've adjusted to the WASD UI (like in the Olden Days before computer mouses!) but it's probably easier for me with the G-13 gameboard.

 

And another thing! I want my HUD back! While gaming, I don't so much feel like I AM the character rather that I'm driving the character and when I drive I like to see my dashboard.

 

Again, I'm just speaking for myself and possibly some other old school gamers and now that I'm comfortable with TESEdit and Wrye Bash maybe I can find the time to take on the CS and mess around with these ideas myself but it would certainly be better if some talented individual would make a go of it first.

 

Thanks.

[elvinkun]

Bah, and everyone flamed, stoned and bashed when I said "I wish Skyrim was an RPG" in the wishing thread a month ago.

It's not bad so far, but the character... In Oblivion you had to at least plan somewhat, but here... Well. You have to just continue exploring and killing stuuf. It will somewhat work out at the end. Only planning... Get magicka if you wanna be mage. Don't get magicka if you don't wanna be mage. In Obli/Morrowing I found it to be easy to trully...erm, integrate with your character and get addicted... Here, the character has way less customisation and ... that probably kills me the most, I find Skyrim to be so extremely anti-intuitive-controlled that I just can't get into my role.

 

And before someone starts shouting at me again, there are many good sides to the game too, but I will not speak about them here.

Edited November 12, 2011 by elvinkun

[maboru]

I agree that Skyrim is a very interesting game with many good ideas and implementations and I am enjoying it but I too would like to become more invested in my character in order to enjoy it more. I actually feel a bit guilty asking for anything at this point because I seem to be one of the few who are having no technical issues playing the game (on Ultra yet) when so many people can't even get it to play at all!

[elvinkun]

Oh, as far as the graphical part goes, I'm really happy. I say the graphics are overall pretty good, everything is nice, and doesn't even ask for very high-end hardware to run smooth and still look cool. Even my rather old computer can run it on high absolutely smoothly. Wasn't actually expecting that.

 

The controlls are killing me thos, and the mous feels like slug moving around your screen. Only way to fic it so far is to make it overly sensitive, but the fact you can do tripple 360 spin while aiming bow isn't that cool either.

 

What sort of wounds me tho, is that with theUI and many other featuures, Bethesda sends rather clear message ... "PC players are obsolete, now we just find out how to apply mods on consoles and then bye bye" ... Some just forget so fast what made and still makes their games living legends.

[MafiaInferno]

I agree that Skyrim is a very interesting game with many good ideas and implementations and I am enjoying it but I too would like to become more invested in my character in order to enjoy it more. I actually feel a bit guilty asking for anything at this point because I seem to be one of the few who are having no technical issues playing the game (on Ultra yet) when so many people can't even get it to play at all!

 

 

Completely agree with your point about the mouse. I requested a mod to improve it but no idea how one would go about that.

 

 

On the topic of turning it back to an RPG, you are so right! When i sat through the ridiculously long intro and came to character creation, my first thought was, 'Is that all?' In skyrim you appear to get forced into one of three roles instead of being able to choose any combination of roles you like. Not being able to do any sort of levelling or assignment of attributes before you begin the game stinks.

[IKvasili]

Bah, and everyone flamed, stoned and bashed when I said "I wish Skyrim was an RPG" in the wishing thread a month ago.

It's not bad so far, but the character... In Oblivion you had to at least plan somewhat, but here... Well. You have to just continue exploring and killing stuuf. It will somewhat work out at the end. Only planning... Get magicka if you wanna be mage. Don't get magicka if you don't wanna be mage. In Obli/Morrowing I found it to be easy to trully...erm, integrate with your character and get addicted... Here, the character has way less customisation and ... that probably kills me the most, I find Skyrim to be so extremely anti-intuitive-controlled that I just can't get into my role.

 

And before someone starts shouting at me again, there are many good sides to the game too, but I will not speak about them here.

 

 

While character creation does feel a tad empty here I have to disagree with all the praise of Oblivion's levelling and progression system. Sure you had to plan your character's development, but it was the most restrictive and counter-intuitive way to do so ever. If you wanted to immerse yourself in the game then character development in Oblivion certainly didn't help. For instance, if I wanted to level up my thief perfectly I COULD NOT tag the skills I actually wanted to use most as my primaries, or else I would over level (missing out on getting more attribute points per level) and the bandits wearing glass armour and daedric maces would steamroll me. How did that help immersion? That a thief would have its primary skills as Destruction and Heavy Armour so that using sneak/archery/light armour didn't force a level up without +5 attributes. I'm all for getting into character development and planning - I love doing that - but Oblivion's system was VERY bad. Sure it's nice to think back on it nostalgically and say "ahhh those were good days, we had to think" but I distinctly remember how frustrating it was to play the way you wanted without completely destroying your character. After I had levelled up my secondary skills enough to get +5 to an attribute (i.e. the ones that were actually an integral part of my character's build) I had to proceed to grind the primary ones to get a level up.

 

I like how Skyrim has handled it, I feel as though there could have been more depth to the perk system however, but it's better than that whole primary/secondary junk Oblivion had. Just be thankful they didn't 'streamline' their system as much as WoW is doing in the next expansion. All in all it was really nice to just jump into the game and play. There is still a great deal of planning you can do if you take into account perk progression/weapons/spells/armour/enchantments/potions/shouts/etc. The depth is there, it just looks a lot more simpler, ESPECIALLY with the addition of Shouts.

 

 

EDIT: yeah the new fonts are weird... I have no idea what possessed them to choose something like that. VERY strange choice imho.

 

EDIT EDIT: Not being able to assign points/'tag' skills was a great change too. I didn't know how archery/magic/melee/stealth would handle, thus I much prefer not getting locked into a build and then having to restart my character because I disliked it. For example in Oblivion I first started as a melee orientated character, after about 30 hours I remade because I hated how melee felt floaty (still does, which is why I'm sticking to magic ^^). It's ok to argue that you want a deeper levelling system, but you have to think that some older levelling systems are incredibly flawed.

Edited November 13, 2011 by IKvasili

[jburrowes]

@maboru

 

I don't know if you're in a minority or not but I am thankful that the character creation is simpler; that we now define our characters by the choices we make while playing... which skills to use (a lot) and which to ignore.

 

Oblivion was the first RPG type game I'd ever played - but I didn't buy it because of its RPG style character creation aspect. I bought it because I've always enjoyed a good medieval period book/movie so the idea of immersing myself in a simulation of that seemed appealing. And it was... until I started reading thread comments about people having to restart their game because they'd 'gimped,' their character.

 

I didn't exactly understand what they meant but it sounded like something I wanted to avoid. Consequently I started and restarted characters over and over again and never did get very far into the main quest - though that might be more because I hated the wasteland I found when I stepped through the first Oblivion Gate. I didn't buy the game to immerse myself in depressing scenery!

 

tejon's excellent nGCD mod (and his other, related mods) fixed Oblivion for me. Once I 'finish,' Skyrim I intend to heavily mod Oblivion and play it too - after I finish Morrowind Overhaul. (I never did play vanilla Morrowind).

 

Having said all of the above I've nothing against those of you that prefer the traditional character creation procedure. It would be great if we could choose one or the other - but I suppose coding for that would have diverted precious man hours away from other things. So I'm glad that, this time, those of us with no RPG playing background weren't again faced with agonizing character creation choices. In real life, after all, we're all free to choose a new career path at any time.

 

"After all the truly excellent work Beth did in creating an unbelievably good hard, dirty, gritty, warts and all Dark Age world and then tabbing out to the computer screen of the Starship Enterprise is simply too incongruous for me!"

 

Well. I couldn't have said that better.

 

Like you I've gotten used to the WASD way of navigating the menus. Most of the time that works great and is quicker than using the mouse. When it comes to accessing the inventory though we need something akin to either Oblivion's BTMod or Morrowind's default system.

 

(Bethesda. Please! Let me sort the inventory by weight or price - along with category. Don't go backwards in UI usability for crying out loud!)

 

What about the 3D map?! This isn't A Long Time Ago in a Galaxy Far Far Away. I don't want no stinking 3D map and markers. I'll bet they did this because someone thought it would wow us and 'add value,' to the game. It didn't and doesn't.

 

(Bethesda. Please! Give me a map that I have to spread on a table or the ground, without markers, and a hand held compass! Help me stay immersed in the beautiful, technologically primitive world you've created.)

 

I don't understand your statement:

 

"And another thing! I want my HUD back! While gaming, I don't so much feel like I AM the character rather that I'm driving the character and when I drive I like to see my dashboard."

 

Given your statement about the UI this, to me, doesn't make sense.

 

For me the HUD is a necessary evil that breaks immersion when it, by necessity, fades into view. Oblivion's Immersive Interface mod got it right and allowed the user to heavily customize what was displayed where - if at all. With a hand held compass to pull out of a pocket I could totally do away with the hi tech looking one provided.

 

Duke Patrick's Combat Archery and Melee Combat mods, for Oblivion, properly configured via their respective ini files, convey one's health and stamina state pretty well using immersive effects like increased and labored breathing, an intense heart beat sound effect, and double (and maybe blurred?) vision. Well tweaked, all combine to convey very well when it's time to "Run away! Run away!"

 

I guess I can see your point a little. I mean, with nothing on the screen it does seem a bit weird. In real life we all see our noses - which look transparent when viewed with both eyes open. If we look to either side we kind of see a hint of eye socket skin too. Putting this on screen would remind us we're 'driving,' a human character but, since we see it already for real, it would be strange.

 

What wouldn't be strange is if, when I'm wearing a hood that nearly totally hides my face, I could see it on either side of my face. The view from first person wouldn't even have to be the same color as from third person. I mean, the inside of all hoods could be said to be lined with soft, black clothe. In this make pretend way one "hood-visible-in-first-person-mode" mod would do for pretty well all hoods - whatever there color. (Someone please mod this!)

 

That's all!

Edited November 14, 2011 by jburrowes

[elvinkun]

 

While character creation does feel a tad empty here I have to disagree with all the praise of Oblivion's levelling and progression system. Sure you had to plan your character's development, but it was the most restrictive and counter-intuitive way to do so ever. If you wanted to immerse yourself in the game then character development in Oblivion certainly didn't help. For instance, if I wanted to level up my thief perfectly I COULD NOT tag the skills I actually wanted to use most as my primaries, or else I would over level (missing out on getting more attribute points per level) and the bandits wearing glass armour and daedric maces would steamroll me. How did that help immersion? That a thief would have its primary skills as Destruction and Heavy Armour so that using sneak/archery/light armour didn't force a level up without +5 attributes. I'm all for getting into character development and planning - I love doing that - but Oblivion's system was VERY bad. Sure it's nice to think back on it nostalgically and say "ahhh those were good days, we had to think" but I distinctly remember how frustrating it was to play the way you wanted without completely destroying your character. After I had levelled up my secondary skills enough to get +5 to an attribute (i.e. the ones that were actually an integral part of my character's build) I had to proceed to grind the primary ones to get a level up.

 

I like how Skyrim has handled it, I feel as though there could have been more depth to the perk system however, but it's better than that whole primary/secondary junk Oblivion had. Just be thankful they didn't 'streamline' their system as much as WoW is doing in the next expansion. All in all it was really nice to just jump into the game and play. There is still a great deal of planning you can do if you take into account perk progression/weapons/spells/armour/enchantments/potions/shouts/etc. The depth is there, it just looks a lot more simpler, ESPECIALLY with the addition of Shouts.

 

 

EDIT: yeah the new fonts are weird... I have no idea what possessed them to choose something like that. VERY strange choice imho.

 

EDIT EDIT: Not being able to assign points/'tag' skills was a great change too. I didn't know how archery/magic/melee/stealth would handle, thus I much prefer not getting locked into a build and then having to restart my character because I disliked it. For example in Oblivion I first started as a melee orientated character, after about 30 hours I remade because I hated how melee felt floaty (still does, which is why I'm sticking to magic ^^). It's ok to argue that you want a deeper levelling system, but you have to think that some older levelling systems are incredibly flawed.

 

 

Well, don't get me wrong, I enjoy the game and there is a lot of good things...

Altough I expected ... evolution when compared to the last 2 TES games or even Fallouts Bethesda made. I guess this is evolution.

I don't say oblivion system was the best thing ever because it sure wasn't, especially on the first playtrough and the way how enemies leveld with you could get weird as well... But fixing and improving Stats, Classes, Birthsigns, Tags and other minor things by removing Stats, Classes, Birthsigns, Tags and other minor things from the game completly just isn't the freaking way.

Perks are good, even tho again, more simplistic than I though. 1 point +x damage, 2 points +x+x damage, 3 points + you can do that damage with both hands.

Wel... Level up is caused by ANY skill up at any time on any character, and it means you can increase you Hp, Sp or Magicka by 10. And get one ponit for simplistic perks. I just can't see that as upgrade compared to the old systems. I mean, hell, some FPS games give you more character development after completeng the level. You realy think this is better? I'm reluctant to even call it "System". And that'S not mocking, it's really a question :D

[SATMA]

Well of course Oblivion's leveling was terrible. That's what we had Oblivion XP for. That's what we need in Skyrim now!

[kibblesticks]

The controlls are killing me thos, and the mous feels like slug moving around your screen. Only way to fic it so far is to make it overly sensitive, but the fact you can do tripple 360 spin while aiming bow isn't that cool either.

 

To adjust the mouse to Oblivion sensitivity move the setting just above the half-way line on the slider :thumbsup:

 

Anyway, I totally agree with OP although I didn't realise it till I read that post. Something about Skyrim didn't feel like an Elder Scrolls game and I think it's probably the removal of S.P.E.C.I.A.L. I think this is an essential component for this style of RPG as otherwise it ends up feeling like more of an action game. I think greater customisation is needed to make you invest more in your character. Skyrim's graphics are great, but there is simply too much in the world for the designers to have made the level of detail the same as, for example, Call of Duty or Uncharted. Having a faceless character works in those games because you're following a fairly linear path and performing fairly routine actions. In the Elder Scrolls, though, a large part of gameplay (for me at least) has been creating your own hero with custom traits and seeing how they fair in the fantasy world, thus creating a fantasy story centered around your character, not Bethesda's.

 

Having said all that, I've only been playing for about 5 hours so I may be pleasantly suprised later on. :biggrin: Also the game is GREAT!