Bringing back TES to Skyrim

[KMA]

Well, after two days I think I know what need to be fixed first in Skyrim. Yes, fixed.

TES games have always had a fundamental feature that the Todd has decided to remove in Skyrim and I think it is a terrible choice. We have always been able to build our own spells, and the removal of this customization is just inconceivable to me. I would love to know what the reasoning was, but I doubt that will ever happen.

 

I will need the help of a scripter who has experience with TES scripting. I can handle all the balancing and other tasks, and probably some of the scripting, but not all. To get this done faster more people would be welcome to join me in returning this vita feature back to Skyrim.

 

The design will be simple to start

We will just clone the Enchanter's Workstation and make it the Spell Station - I will custom build a model for it after we get the basic functioning working

Then we need to make a menu appear when it is activated. This menu will have the traditional variables (type of spell, effect, duration, range) with sliders to control the numbers (direct entry of numbers is not required). The cost of the spell (in manna per second or as a flat fee) will be displayed, as well as the cost in gold. The script must also read the player's known spells and limit the list to the types (specific not categorical) that the player knows. This will probably be the hardest part, as it must be dynamically read, so that spells added in the future will continue to work. We will be establishing the types and hopefully spell makers in the future will take them into consideration when they craft them. If they do not, it will be simple enough that I can just update the list every few weeks.

 

Then the spell will be crafted, and added to the player's known spells list then we will be done.

 

I will handle all the tedious Excel work categorizing, balancing, and setting up the formulae for all the variables.

 

If you want to help, and know how to TES script, then please join me in returning this singular feature that differentiated TES games from all others.

 

Future goals - Add in the missing spell(s) (e.g. Invisibility, Levitation, etc.).

[LithianLord]

Jump. Lithianlord needs jump.

[KMA]

Yes, jump and feather fall. I forgot those, so thanks Lithanlord! Actually, I think I will forget about Levitation and just go with Jump.

 

I was also considering mark and recall. The Devs said that it was too powerful, yet they allow us to mark the map and fast travel at will (unless there are enemies nearby). So in effect, they just wanted to give mark & recall to everyone (just bizarre). It is the same reason why they changed Enchanting so that pure fighters can use it (break down item to learn) without having to be a spell caster. Really, they made the game 50% better and 40% worse. Our job is to remove as much of that 40% as possible and make Skyrim greater. Then we can add to it, and make it greaterer :teehee:.

Edited November 12, 2011 by KMA

[Thoragoros]

Totally agree.

 

I like Skyrim, but some of the changes are just ludicrous. They really seemed to try and fix a bunch of stuff that just wasn't broken, like the UI, removing Spellcrafting, and removing Mysticism, athlectics and acrobatics.

 

And why the removal of Major Attributes, I mean, even Fallout had those.

[KMA]

I missed Mysticism. This is just another example of how they nerfed the Mage class in this game. I refuse to use the fast travel (horse and carriage) to visit new areas, as it breaks the gameplay reasons for most of the exploration that occurs in the game. Getting chased by something that is about to kill you, when you stumble over a new location and then hide behind it, is part of the TES experience. With the only Mage Guild buried as far away from the starting point as possible, either means that you do not get to visit there for quite some time, or you have to 'cheat' and use the carriage. I just hit level 10 and have enough Invis. potions to make the run now, but I keep on finding more aspects of this game that are no longer TES (so they are going on the list to fix).

 

Athletics was to cover the fact that there is little water exploration in this game (another TES feature cut). There used to be worlds under the water, but now we just get a few broken ships and a few half-towers. Arrgh! :pirate:

 

The UI is a direct badly-ported version of the XBox version. It appears that is who they are targeting with their games now (did it with F3 too). By removing all that content Todd was able to make the game with a much smaller team, for less cost, and faster. So this is just a money grab, and using the consoles to explain all their changes is a lie. I played Morrowind on XBox and PC and they were the same, so this is a pure degradation of the TES line for larger profits (less investment and the same returns = higher bonuses for everyone). I for one will not be buying any of their DLCs, and hope to get enough donations to hire some more modders onto my team so that we can preemptively release things like a proper house (e.g. Tower or Keep from Oblivion). If we cannot beat them to it, then we can mod up a competing release that has more appeal than their version so people do not have to pay them another cent for this release.

 

Another TES aspect that is not in Skyrim, that I did not realize until last night's session: Skill Trainers (no, not a program to cheat) - this saved the Devs a huge amount of time, but also wrecked most of the reason for visiting everyone in the game. The perks just allow everyone to do everything, which is what they think console users want. It just destroys a lot of the reason to replay the game. This would take months with about 4 people (aside from myself) working full time, to put it back into the game and nerf the Perks back down to compensate. So unless someone can show how this could be more easily done, I doubt I will be fixing this.

 

Can anyone confirm that they took the Parallax idea from the Oblivion mod? I saw something in the decompressed files that made me assume that this was the case (but I cannot remember what I was looking at). Also, does anyone know how they generated the new Normal Maps? You will know them when you see them. I need to know how to do that.

[Algorath]

Mind you, this isn't an attack on you or your opinions, but rather some points I'd like to make clear.

 

I missed Mysticism. This is just another example of how they nerfed the Mage class in this game. I refuse to use the fast travel (horse and carriage) to visit new areas, as it breaks the gameplay reasons for most of the exploration that occurs in the game...

Mysticism and Alteration both took a major hit; however, it can be agreed upon (for whatever reason) that the staff chose to reduce redundancy.

 

The UI is a direct badly-ported version of the XBox version. By removing all that content Todd was able to make the game with a much smaller team, for less cost, and faster. So this is just a money grab, and using the consoles to explain all their changes is a lie.

 

Firstly, Oblivion's staff as a little more than sixty people, Skyrim's is something above a hundred. I'm confident that cost was not a motivator here. The dungeon design staff was an army of 1 for Oblivion, Skyrim's is something near 18. If there was a hardware related reason, it's the lack thereof inside the 360. So please, no baseless assumptions.

 

Secondly, as far as pre-orders go:(In total sales as of Nov. 5.)

1,204,558 (360) + 436,266 (PS3) = 1,640,824 (Total) vs. PC 223,324 (http://www.vgchartz.com/preorders.php)

 

Apparently Consoles make up the greatest majority of the market share, I'm sorry, but Bethesda has made respectable choices concerning product distribution; I for one will not fault them. I do agree, however, that the UI is meant for a controller. I use a 360 controller, and was surprised by the negative feed back from the PC community. Given it's assumptions, it's really quite fluid.

 

Another TES aspect that is not in Skyrim, that I did not realize until last night's session: Skill Trainers (no, not a program to cheat) - this saved the Devs a huge amount of time, but also wrecked most of the reason for visiting everyone in the game. The perks just allow everyone to do everything, which is what they think console users want. It just destroys a lot of the reason to replay the game. This would take months with about 4 people (aside from myself) working full time, to put it back into the game and nerf the Perks back down to compensate. So unless someone can show how this could be more easily done, I doubt I will be fixing this.

There are skill trainers, more than Oblivion had; consult a guide if you don't believe me: There's a one-handed trainer in Whiterun, if you get his sword back for him

 

 

All said though, I agree that some of the spells would make a welcome comeback, predominately alteration; TES are known for a plethora of options. I also agree that making spells is a sorely missed feature, one that I can see implemented quite nicely without sacrificing much in the way of balance.

 

 

If Todd gets his way (however the hell he can manage it.) the modding market will skyrocket with Console availability; I would be surprised if both Beth and Nexus aren't conspiring with Microsoft and Sony right now.

 

In any event, play nice with the console crowd, they outnumber us eight to one.

[VoraNoxstella]

I like how using the carriage is a cheat (you forget Morrowind's Silt Striders?)

 

I would like custom spells, though.

[Serotriptomine]

I have a couple of ideas for taking the actual spells to a newer level, or at least adding archetypes for your Spell Modification/Creation Station.

Unfortunately I have no experience in scripting or anything like that.

Let me know where I can communicate with you or people you're working with.

[Blocky]

I like how using the carriage is a cheat (you forget Morrowind's Silt Striders?)

 

I would like custom spells, though.

 

Didn't silt striders only take you to a nearby city?

[KMA]

No worries, I do not take most posts personally.

 

Mysticism and Alteration both took a major hit; however, it can be agreed upon (for whatever reason) that the staff chose to reduce redundancy.

 

No, not really. You cannot just state 'it can be agreed upon' without proof. I do not see reduced redundancy, I see a lot of gameplay that was around since TES 1 and is now gone, in exchange for a very simplified game. Gameplay takes 60% of the work in most TES games to get all the people and cities set up, but not this time, I would say it is more like 40% and the rest went to graphics.

 

The UI is a direct badly-ported version of the XBox version. By removing all that content Todd was able to make the game with a much smaller team, for less cost, and faster. So this is just a money grab, and using the consoles to explain all their changes is a lie.

 

Firstly, Oblivion's staff as a little more than sixty people, Skyrim's is something above a hundred. I'm confident that cost was not a motivator here. The dungeon design staff was an army of 1 for Oblivion, Skyrim's is something near 18. If there was a hardware related reason, it's the lack thereof inside the 360. So please, no baseless assumptions.

 

Actually, there were over 120 people on the Oblivion team, not counting all the Non-English testers. In all it was over 150 people (leaving out accountants, and other execs that did not really work on the game). As for it not being a XBox port, then perhaps Beth should not have left the proof of this in their files. The ESM has proof of this for sure, as does the Textures folder, I think.

 

As for the numbers of designers for the dungeons it was 1 for Oblivion and 8 for Skyrim, and that was due to them changing from a procedural landscape generation to hand-crafted. Just from that alone, we see much better level design, which is welcome. If I had to choose between this and gameplay, I would have asked for some procedural for the non-essentials. I have not been stunned by more than two or three of the many dungeons I have visited and find most to be overly cramped compared to Obliv. and Morr. dungeons (where there were multiple paths, especially when you could jump - both spell and acrobatics). Now, they are very linear, the puzzles and traps are easy as pie, and the grandeur of the gothic syles, where the roof seemed to not be there, are gone (Obliv. at least). There is no hardware reason. This game runs at Ultra on my system with only a 5 degree rise in CPU temp which is equivalent to watching a movie. That is not demanding by any stretch of the imagination. If it were not lagging, and the cursor getting squirly during combat, I might even praise that aspect as it will allow adding more mods to the loadout. But I was trying to say that they were hiding behind the consoles as an excuse to nerf the game, and cover it with some pretty graphics (once again Tesselation?). It was a full game on the consoles in Morr. and Obliv., and this is not much more demanding than they were.

 

Secondly, as far as pre-orders go:(In total sales as of Nov. 5.)

Apparently Consoles make up the greatest majority of the market share, I'm sorry, but Bethesda has made respectable choices concerning product distribution; I for one will not fault them. I do agree, however, that the UI is meant for a controller. I use a 360 controller, and was surprised by the negative feed back from the PC community. Given it's assumptions, it's really quite fluid.

 

You do not realize that their charts only record physical copies, and since the majority of PC Skyrim sales were via Steam, those number are not very useful. Historically, PC's count for 1/3 the market, and the consoles count for 1/3 of each of their respective markets. I do not understand the comment about the fluid assumptions. I would have called the assumption that most PC users would be using XBox controllers, quite mad actually. If this were a game more geared towards those with controllers it would be more understandable.

 

There are skill trainers, more than Oblivion had; consult a guide if you don't believe me: There's a one-handed trainer in Whiterun, if you get his sword back for him

 

Sorry, that was my bad. I did not explain that I meant, the need to find trainers that would teach you each categorical level (Novice, Apprentice, Expert, and Master).

 

In any event, play nice with the console crowd, they outnumber us eight to one.

 

Oh, I am not taking pot shots at the consoles. Far from it. I am saying that the game was dumbed down to such a level that it will probably anger the console users as well unless they have never played a TES game before. I mean, there are no Birthsigns, no Attributes, no Alchemical Hardware of varying levels, no Classes, many missing Enchantments and Spells, and some over-powered Perks (cheats) which pander to the Fighters (as does most of the game). The cities are miniscule compared to typical TES cities, and the number of NPCs is also very low both in and out of the towns except in the cookie-cutter camps. Instead we get a lot of useless food that we do not need to eat, a system that practically relegates capturing a soul to an enchanted weapon (who played Obliv. or Morr. and did not make Soul Capture an area effect as targeting is such as pain on the gamebyro engine in combat?), and a control scheme that does not always work (double mouse button pushes fail about 5% of the time, not to mention the horrid menu controls).

 

Sure this is so they can push up the particles, add in shadows, and parallax mapping (I think). But we also get a clip-fest and significantly reduced gameplay which costs us replayability. I am now Level 20, running around killing almost everything with the same basic starting fire spell that I started the game with. Little challenges me, as the AI is still the same as Oblivion (in combat). If in doubt, climb a bit and jump on a rock and the AI will run around like a chicken with it's head cut off. Normally in the game you do not need to do this, and so far I only needed it once against a Giant and a second time against a Thief (in the far North). The AI in non-combat it is much better, and they tend not to stand in the fire now, but we still get bunnies running underwater (as they cannot drown - and do not have the send to run up the shallow embankments), so perhaps that is just the NPCs. The game looks much better, but since the game lags with shadows on (on a 6-Core 4 GHz power system and 2GB video card), and the textures break down more than just bump maps when you get near most things, it is only great when you are looking at the panoramic shots (and there are lots of them, unlike Rage). For the rest of the time, it is still very good, and they promised HiRes upgrades for the LoRes console graphics, so it will be fixed by Beth themselves. The rest is up to us.

 

I truly wish you are correct about them getting PC mods onto consoles. Modders would have more reason to do all this work, and bring in more fans to the TES world. I just hope that people are mentioning that they wish the TES elements that were cut will be re-introduced in the next game, or else you can expect to see even more cut then. Give 'em an inch...

 

One thing I should add as a warning to anyone just getting the game. Beware of giants, and take them from range (and run between shots). They are massively overpowered, and a single (non-frost) giant smoked a dragon and only lost about 10% of its health in the 5 second fight. I think it only hit the dragon once (but I could have missed the first hit - so at most it was two hits). The good news is that the body just sits there until you run over and poach the dragon soul (then run like hell away from the giant). It is a good thing giants do not fly (yet). :devil:

 

@ Serotriptomine - Just PM me.

 

@ Silt Striders - I think they were only nearby - but they were cheats too. That is what the potions of running were for. Ah good times, running faster than a horse...

Edited November 15, 2011 by KMA