The Civil War - I'm Clueless

[thesapien]

The game doesn't push you one way or the other. It's like joining any faction or not. Irrelevant to the main story.

[bombomb]

 

 

Quite frankly, I'd rather kill them all and let the Divines sort it out.

 

 

 

 

Clavicus Vile - "I'd snap my fingers and everybody in Skyrim would be dead"

[justwannaddl]

 

 

Quite frankly, I'd rather kill them all and let the Divines sort it out.

 

 

 

 

Clavicus Vile - "I'd snap my fingers and everybody in Skyrim would be dead"

 

If only that really was an option. Funny though, does that mean two or three dragon borns could wipe out Skyrim by themselves?

[eltucu]

Ulfric is a Thalmor agent. You find a dossier in the Thalmor embassy in the main quest "diplomatic immunity."

He is not anymore, he never was actually, did you even read it or just stopped at the part of asset? Hell, if i found that the Thalmor consider your mum as an asset would you believe it right away?

 

He is considered an asset cuz he is the one responsible for the uprising in Skyrim, wich favors the Thalmor since it weakens the Empire. Its said over and over that the Thalmor doesnt want the war to finish. They want both Ulfric and the Empire spending all they got in the civil war so they will be easier to take out.

 

The dossier goes about how he was tortured, and after he "broke", the Thalmor made him believe that the information he gave them was crucial in taking the Imperial City, when in fact, Ulfric "broke" after the Imperial City was taken, so the information was useless. Then they released him, and the dossier ends in how the Thalmor isnt capable of contacting him anymore. Basically, they underestimated him and now he is waging war to both the Thalmor and the Empire.

 

If you tried to make the peace treaty, you'd see that Ulfric is well aware that he was played by the Thalmor before and not willing to be played again.

[Lachdonin]

He is not anymore, he never was actually, did you even read it or just stopped at the part of asset? Hell, if i found that the Thalmor consider your mum as an asset would you believe it right away?

 

He is considered an asset cuz he is the one responsible for the uprising in Skyrim, wich favors the Thalmor since it weakens the Empire. Its said over and over that the Thalmor doesnt want the war to finish. They want both Ulfric and the Empire spending all they got in the civil war so they will be easier to take out.

 

The dossier goes about how he was tortured, and after he "broke", the Thalmor made him believe that the information he gave them was crucial in taking the Imperial City, when in fact, Ulfric "broke" after the Imperial City was taken, so the information was useless. Then they released him, and the dossier ends in how the Thalmor isnt capable of contacting him anymore. Basically, they underestimated him and now he is waging war to both the Thalmor and the Empire.

 

If you tried to make the peace treaty, you'd see that Ulfric is well aware that he was played by the Thalmor before and not willing to be played again.

 

It can also be argued that his status as an 'asset' is reflected in the fact that the Thalmor already know his pressure points. They may not be able to break him entirely (Thats proof of the fact he still opposes them wholeheartedly) but knowing his emotional and mental weaknesses can be used to prod him in a particular direction.

 

For instance, if the Stormcloaks were to meet the Thalmor in battle, knowlege of Ulfric's character could be used against him, since Ulfric likes to strike from a possition of superiority. By creating the illusion of that superiority, they could goad him into a direct attack, then cut off his forces with a superior force of their own, in a way similar to how the Empire managed to defeat the Domminion in the Battle of the Red Ring.

 

You don't have to have direct control over and asset, knowing how they will react to certian situations is enough to warrent calling them such.

[eltucu]

It can also be argued that his status as an 'asset' is reflected in the fact that the Thalmor already know his pressure points. They may not be able to break him entirely (Thats proof of the fact he still opposes them wholeheartedly) but knowing his emotional and mental weaknesses can be used to prod him in a particular direction.

 

For instance, if the Stormcloaks were to meet the Thalmor in battle, knowlege of Ulfric's character could be used against him, since Ulfric likes to strike from a possition of superiority. By creating the illusion of that superiority, they could goad him into a direct attack, then cut off his forces with a superior force of their own, in a way similar to how the Empire managed to defeat the Domminion in the Battle of the Red Ring.

 

You don't have to have direct control over and asset, knowing how they will react to certian situations is enough to warrent calling them such.

Then he is just as vulnerable as Mede and there is no hope in defeating the thalmor? Its not like Ulfric is the only taking the shots. Specially when the scale of the war goes from city to city, to province to province.

 

If the Thalmor had such control of Ulfric, the player woulnt be able to win the civil war for him (specially when you just take orders and dont decide anything).

 

Besides, as i said, in the Peace Treaty Ulfric shows that he is aware of how the thalmor tries to manipulate him and not only that, but he makes sure that the thalmor agent doesnt manipulates him in such a crucial situation.

 

Its pretty clear than when Ulfric's influence grows, the harder it gets for the Thalmor to manipulate him.

Edited January 12, 2012 by eltucu

[Lachdonin]

Then he is just as vulnerable as Mede and there is no hope in defeating the thalmor? Its not like Ulfric is the only taking the shots. Specially when the scale of the war goes from city to city, to province to province.

 

If the Thalmor had such control of Ulfric, the player woulnt be able to win the civil war for him (specially when you just take orders and dont decide anything).

 

Besides, as i said, in the Peace Treaty Ulfric shows that he is aware of how the thalmor tries to manipulate him and not only that, but he makes sure that the thalmor agent doesnt manipulates him in such a crucial situation.

 

Its pretty clear than when Ulfric's influence grows, the harder it gets for the Thalmor to manipulate him.

 

First, Mede actually reversed that Thalmor manipulation to acheive the victory at the Battle of the Red Ring. He's already shown himself capable of beating the Thalmor at their own game.

 

That evidence has yet to be seen in Ulfric. He claims to be stronger, but overconfidence can be a bad thing. We just do not know about him.

 

Then again, Mede is killed in Skyrim, so we have no conclusive evidence that the Empire's leadership can pull it off either. In that regard both sides are on equal footing.

 

I was simply trying to argue that the Thalmor refering to Ulfric as an 'asset' does not directly mean he's working for them.

[faifh]

That sums it up IMHO:

 

http://api.ning.com/files/s0B*SJ7tCh8ScttuLoa5oc47GPe*Or-HmrgFpwPUUGCxY9hSRxBYp5F68T*1Obzl5Dmd0sLVAR8ss8Fz0FD9d4FElYKU3X5x/skyrimcomic2.jpg?width=430&height=600

[eltucu]

First, Mede actually reversed that Thalmor manipulation to acheive the victory at the Battle of the Red Ring. He's already shown himself capable of beating the Thalmor at their own game.

Beating no. More like a draw, and that would be being generous for the Empire.

 

That evidence has yet to be seen in Ulfric. He claims to be stronger, but overconfidence can be a bad thing. We just do not know about him.

Ulfric is not over confident. Actually, he needs a lil push from Galmar if you listen to their conversations. There is the Ulfric orator, confident, warrior, rebel, and there is Ulfric that is planning how to get things in motion. You see pretty well these two distinctions in the Stormcloak campaign. And then you see why he is the Jarl of Windhelm instead of that preacher in Whiterun.

 

Then again, Mede is killed in Skyrim, so we have no conclusive evidence that the Empire's leadership can pull it off either. In that regard both sides are on equal footing.

Well no. Empire would have no leader, with the Thalmor operating right in their territory, and half the continent mad at them (Argonians drove imperials out, Hammerfell rebels felt that the Concordat was betrayal, much like the stormcloacks, and half morrowind is "new blackmarsh", the other part is "new wasteland" ).

 

Hell, with the Thalmor watching all over the sucesion, it would be a matter of luck if the Empire didnt ended with someone pro Thalmor as new emperor. We know pretty well they have been greasing palms all over Skyrim, and it would be foolish to think they wouldnt act in a similar way on Cyrodiil and High Rock.

 

That considered, there could be a new charismatic Emperor, like Ulfric, but on a bigger scale. But it would take a great deal of effort to bring back Hammerfell and Argonia to the Legions.

 

I was simply trying to argue that the Thalmor refering to Ulfric as an 'asset' does not directly mean he's working for them.

That was exactly what i was saying.

[falseblackbear]

Beating no. More like a draw, and that would be being generous for the Empire.

Did you miss the part where the Empire annihilated the entire Thalmor army and hung their general from the White-Gold Tower?

 

Mede is killed in Skyrim, so we have no conclusive evidence that the Empire's leadership can pull it off either. In that regard both sides are on equal footing.

That just opens a door for the next Dragonborn Emperor to restore the Empire to it's former glory. You also have the option of destroying the Dark Brotherhood instead.

 

Face it, the Nords alone (in their crappy light Stormcloak Armor) cannot defeat the Thalmor in such a way that they will be destroyed. They may be able to hold them out of Skyrim for a while, but what happens when they take Black Marsh, Morrowind, Cyrodill, Hammerfell, and High Rock? How will Skyrim stand then? The Thalmor want the Empire to break apart so that they're more vulnerable.