Rebalancing Skyrim

[fourtylashes]

So I've been playing Skyrim quite a bit since it was released.

 

And I can say without fear, that right now, Skyrim is a mess. At least in balance. Be critical or not of it in other areas, but Skyrim is in desperate need of rebalancing. Thankfully, we can mod the game. I'd like to devote this topic to fixing the game because it needs lots of help. Will I be making a mod to fix Skyrim? Possibly. I don't know yet what my time permits, but this topic should be something anyone wishing to balance Skyrim should speak their mind on. I'm going to present how I would fix Skyrim though, so react to what I have to offer as though I were releasing an official Skyrim balance "patch" today.

 

There are several huge flaws in Skyrim's balance.

 

#1 - You are required to level every skill in Skyrim to reach max level

 

This is a huge flaw because if I want to play a pure mage character, I shouldn't be required to hit monsters with bows 2000 times to maximize my magicka count or spell potency.

 

#2 - Most bottom-end talents are all you need

 

This is a huge flaw. What is the point in perks if there's no choice to be made? The first perk in 1H and 2H weapons is essentially +100% damage. Who wouldn't want that? What are you giving up to get that? Everyone is going to pick these perks if they're going melee, or hell, even mage. Double your damage output? Sure thing.

 

#3 - Pure magic-based builds suck

 

They really do. They drop off a cliff at around level 20 if you don't immediately specialize and utilize in a melee weapon too. It's kind of ridiculous really. Spells cost too much magicka, they don't deal enough damage - even with +50% damage perks. You need to invest way too much in magicka to be able to support casting spells on a single target, let alone multiple targets. Area of effect spells are too easy to interrupt for their paltry damage output.

 

Mages are generally giving up heavy armor (or they should be, in theory anyway) and sustainability (spells cost mana afterall) to be able to deal damage. They should have strong skills to make up for these sacrifices. But they don't. With 500 magicka, you can cast one very high level destruction spell or two high level non-destruction spells and then you're out of mana for a good minute, depending on your amount of magicka regen gear. This would be fine perhaps, if you could kill your average target with them, but you can't.

 

Low level skills are horribly mana-ineffecient. Holding down "sparks" to kill a single Whiterun guard will run you completely dry. It's kind of ridiculous that there aren't more effecient or powerful versions of these spells for high level characters. They become obsolete after level 10!

 

#4 - Theft is too strong and too annoying at the same time

 

It's too hard to fence things, or at least in my experience so far. The thief guild is the only fence I know of, and she has a small gold pool. In order to fence with every merchant, you need over 70 speechcraft, which takes forever to level up.

 

It's also way too strong, it is far too easy to walk into a house while crouched and steal everything valuable and sell it. There should be more repercussions for thief-based players, be it locked out from certain alliances with quest-givers or guilds, or some other penalty. Fencing needs to be made easier and theft needs to be made harder and more of an active choice instead of a simple pastime.

 

#5 - Horses are too costly

 

This is pretty basic and obvious. I know everyone fast travels, or at least most do, so there's no reason a horse should cost so much when it is so easily lost to its AI or the random mobbing of a hungry monster.

 

#6 - Enemy archers are too strong

 

I haven't explored archery enough, but enemy archers are simply out of control. It's ridiculous. They need to be toned down. On the average difficulty, in legendary glass armor, I'm being 3 shot.

 

#7 - Armor and weapons need rebalancing.

 

Period. Firstly, heavy armor should not contain a perk which negates its major downside (slowed movement speed). Secondly, weapons will need a lot of rebalancing when you touch the perk trees anyway.

 

#8 - End-tier perks are garbage

 

In most skills they are. It's seldom worth fully investing in an entire tree. This is especially true when all end tier mage tree perks simply reduce mana costs so spells become castable (I think Firestorm goes from 1300 mana cost [unusable by anyone without the master perk] to 400~ or so.]). You only invest because you have to, because there's no other choice.

 

The fact 1H and 2H weapon end tier perk (25% paralyze on back power attack) are the same only shows Bethesda's carelessness here.

 

#9 - Conjuration is too weak and too strong at the same time

 

Summoning Daedra (especially with that easy to get rose-staff from Whiterun) will let you deal with any number of foe for practically the whole game. Summoned familiars don't do squat by the time you can acquire the skill. Summons don't last long enough for their mana investment and don't scale well at all.

 

#10 - Not enough perks

 

Perhaps not a balance problem, but truly, there are simply not enough to choose from.

 

My balance "patch" would aim to address all these issues, perhaps by first annulling that atrocious atrological system Bethesda is sticking with. There's no need to restrict trees by making pictures with them. Thus, I would also double or perhaps triple the number of perks, diminishing or scattering the straight up +% damage perks (while at the same time adjusting magic and weapon damage scaling since having that +100% damage perk is pretty critical to killing anything in the game) throughout the trees.

 

I would rehaul magic and try to add in some spells that are "missing" (restored from Oblivion/Morrowind). I would address the social system of buying/selling and fencing/stealing. I would also have a look at marriages and relationships, it is far too casual in its current state and as a result, very unfulfilling. I would completely rehaul character leveling and progression, favoring less "jack of all trades" nonsense and allowing for pure builds to be done and leveled effeciently (while not stamping out hybrids of course).

 

What else should I do? What shouldn't I do? Perhaps I should address what Bethesda wouldn't and put back an attribute system (though I am not wont to rehaul the system so drastically, when it can probably work with just perks). Perhaps I should add content that Bethesda needs to. I'd like thoughts on this. How would you balance this game? Because right now, I'm rather flustered that this game is already becoming what Oblivion quickly became for me.

 

edit: I think I'll draw up a concept "patch" with as specific changes as I can muster and post it here tomorrow. Looking forward to the feedback.

 

-- - - -

 

 

Okay, so here is a specific change log I'd do, in theory. I haven't even touched Skyrim yet in terms of modding, but I might carry this idea out given a little time:

 

fourtylashes' theorhetical Skyrim Balance Patch v1.0 changelog

 

General

 

Character Stats

 

*Spells now gain 2% more damage per 10 points of maximum magicka (this means that spell damage is 20% greater for all characters on default)

 

*You now gain 2% more physical defense per 10 points of maximum health (again, this means 20% more armor), and 5 more maximum encumbrance

 

*You now gain 1.5% more physical damage with any weapon per 10 points of maximum stamina

 

Spells

 

*All spells have had their costs halved

 

*Three to five completely new spells have been added to each discpline:

Destruction: Corrode Armor, Drain Magicka, Weakness to Magic, Corrode Weapon

Alteration: Feather, Open Easy Lock, Open Average Lock

Conjuration: Bound Armor, Bound Boots, Bound Gauntles, Bound Helm, Summon Skeleton

Illusion: Silence, Dispel Other, Dispel Self

Restoration: Fortify Health, Fortify Stamina, Fortify Magicka

 

*There are now "Lesser" "Minor" "Greater" and "Legendary" versions of each spell. Lesser spells are equivalent to existing Skyrim spells after aformentioned mana and damage changes. Minor spells are slightly more magicka-effecient. Greater spells are slightly more magicka effecient and deal slightly more damage. Legendary spells are slightly more effecient and have a pronounced amount of added damage, but either have longer casting times or come at some cost (such as reduced defenses or self-damage while used).

 

*Those specializing in magic of any kind will be able to acquire and customize a familiar of their choice which will scale and level with the player. This will occur through an obvious early game quest. Those who do not wish a familiar can opt out for 10 permanently increased magicka, stamina and health.

 

Social

 

*Many merchants can now be turned into fences without the necessary perk, provided they are "corrupt" in nature. Deepening relations with a specific merchant now improves their buy/sell prices over time and gradually causes their wares to improve.

*Marriage is now more complex. All marriage candidates have had some added unvoiced dialogue. All marriage candidates have had at least one quest added. Some marriage candidates no longer open a shop upon marriage, but offer other unique services instead.

*Choosing not to marry provides its own bonuses now, providing you with the ability to interact with some NPCs differently to improve prices, acquire unique weapons, armors and temporary buffs.

 

Perks

 

*Skill Trees now cap at level 150.

*Each skill tree has aproximately 35 unique perks, diverging into 2 to 4 "paths"

*At the beginning of the game, you are given the option in the form of a minor quest to forever abstain from leveling/improving a single skill tree of your choosing in exchange for three free perk points and 5% faster leveling speed for all other stats.

*Every tree now has at least 1 perk which is effected by your skill in an unrelated perk (ie, an archery perk that you can only take provided you have invested 5 or more perks in destruction magic).

*Most notably, all "paralysis on power attack", "negated movement speed reduction while wearing heavy armor", "mana cost reduction for X class spell", "dodge", and "damage reflection" perks are either being moved to the bottoms of trees or completely removed and replaced.

 

 

Weapons and Armor

 

*Armor and weapons of enemies are adjusted to new average levels of armor/damage for players

*Heavy armor's effect on movement speed is lessened, however, heavy armor now comes with a downside - most heavy armor is weak to a given magical element (lightning, fire or ice). This stat varies from armor to armor, some armors have no negative modifier (but perhaps offer less physical protection) others may cause you to take as much as 30% more from a specific element's spells, while others may cause you to take 10% more damage from all sources of magic. These negative effects can be tempered through smithing and new accessories like rings/pendants.

*Light Armor now naturally provides a small amount of dodge.

*"Clothing" now naturally provides a very small amount of dodge and increased magic resistance.

*The effects of cleave, bleed or armor-penetrate are naturally inherent to swords, axes and maces respectively. These natural effects can be improved through perks.

 

- - - -

 

Okay the above is the preliminary patch notes. I aim to specifically do all that I've listed here. Anything I should add or subtract from this list? What would you like to see specifically? What's bad?

Edited November 16, 2011 by fourtylashes

[MikhailFaulken]

Archers are weak sauce. Personally, I find that enemy mages are much too powerful. A dude with a lighting bolt spell can kill me in like 2 hits. I have to hit 'n run or summon an atronach to help me fend the bastards off.

 

Meanwhile, the toughest melee opponents barely scratch me on a bad day.

 

 

Though I do think the magic that you get is much too weak. How frickin' strong are all these enemies that it takes more than 20 fireballs to fell them?! I'm better off using my axe.

[fourtylashes]

I suppose magic on the monster end can be strong, I've encountered some enemy mages that have been tough, but I'm mostly talking about players here. The only non-archer monsters I've had trouble with on Adept have been the spectral ghosts you fight during the Werewolf quest line and some of the mages you fight during the Winterhold questline. Maybe I was just underleveled or unprepared for those encounters, but they were not easy.

 

But anyway, the ice troll you encounter on your way to meet the monks for the first time is impossible to beat for any mage character, for instance. Even though they're "weak to fire" a single firebolt does 1/25th their life and by the time you can cast 25 of those you're far beyond dead. Mid/late game it is always better to use a melee weapon over magic, except in instances where you're being swarmed by a lot of enemies (which is... almost never) in which case AOE spells are decent, but only when you can anticipate an encounter and prepare, timing the spell just right. And even then, all those attackers will likely be left with 20-40% of their life, which you'll have to fight off with 0 magicka.

 

Frankly, I find it ridiculous how costly PC spells are. If you invest 40 levels in improving magicka (+400 magicka) you can barely cast 2-4 upper division spells before going dry. That's 40 whole freaking levels for just 500 magicka. You hardly need more than 250 stamina to swing that 2H axe to your desires, using the rest to buy into health or a little magicka for some alteration/illusion buff.

 

I don't know what to say about shields. Guardsmen are ridiculously tanky with their shields, you can mash them with that power swing from any great 2h weapon and... well shields drag fights out way too long. I don't know if I should nerf them, adjust them (shifting them into a more offensive role with shield bashing and shield charging), or keep them as is.

Edited November 14, 2011 by fourtylashes

[joey4track]

I am hoping a mod like this will come sooner than later. Balance is always the biggest issue for me with Beth games. I might just play my massively modded Oblivion until the community can fix this game..

[fourtylashes]

I too would like a mod to come out sooner rather than later, but the soonest I can even begin is after fall semester ends in December :P hopefully someone will be faster than me and address my concerns before then.

 

Of course, this is even assuming the toolkit is out by December. I certainly hope it is.

Edited November 15, 2011 by fourtylashes

[RejectedCamel]

#1 - You are required to level every skill in Skyrim to reach max level

Makes sense to me... A master of all skills is surely better than a master of 1 skill?

 

 

#2 - Most bottom-end talents are all you need

The idea is that more talents = more options. The power is gained by increasing in level and therefore having access to better gear. The amount of options you have is increased by the perks you acquire. Simple.

 

#3 - Pure magic-based builds suck

A friend is currently level 28 and he's a pure destruction/illusion mage, and he's told me that the game is ridiculously easy on adept difficulty.

 

#4 - Theft is too strong and too annoying at the same time

True.

 

#5 - Horses are too costly

No way. I gain several thousands of gold in minutes by smithing or clearing dungeons, and I was doing so even before hitting level 15. Horses are priced just right, unless you don't try to make money, and therefore they'll obviously be too expensive.

 

#6 - Enemy archers are too strong

Nope, sorry. Archers are extremely easy to kill. Dodging arrows is a piece of cake, and their lack of significant armour makes them ridiculously easy to take down.

 

#7 - Armor and weapons need rebalancing.

 

Period. Firstly, heavy armor should not contain a perk which negates its major downside (slowed movement speed). Secondly, weapons will need a lot of rebalancing when you touch the perk trees anyway.

That perk is acquired at level 100, isn't it? By then your character, if there was such a system, would have grown a lot physically with all the muscle. It makes sense that he can carry heavy armour around with much less effort. Other than that, you sort of need powerful weapons and stuff to take dragons, trolls and armies of enemies down.

 

#8 - End-tier perks are garbage

So being able to craft dragon armour is garbage? Heavy armour not weighing anything is garbage? Etc.

 

#9 - Conjuration is too weak and too strong at the same time

If you're trying to survive a dragon-slaying, dungeon-clearing game just by conjuring stuff then you're doing it wrong. At most, conjuration is just an interesting gimmicky skill, so it shouldn't matter whether what you summon is crazily powerful or not. You need to be able to fight by yourself. Plus, you have companions to help you out. Conjuration is mainly used as a last resort or as a distraction, not as a main weapon, and almost every player will probably agree.

 

#10 - Not enough perks

Because 200+ perks aren't enough?

 

 

As you can see, I do agree with a few things, as well as your noting of relationships and marriage being too casual. However, I think you're just seeing the glass half empty. If you stop and have a think, almost all of Bethesda's options not only make sense, but you wonder why they didn't come up with those ideas 10 years ago.

[Gabbemaster]

Oh, this made me sad. I am playing a mage character and had certainly hoped that everything would even out in the end. Making me more powerfull. But according to your experience it's the other way around :/

[fourtylashes]

Makes sense to me... A master of all skills is surely better than a master of 1 skill?

 

What? Well, in a poorly designed video game perhaps, but in any true-to-human setting I know, you master one or two crafts in your lifetime, at best, even if you're some legendary hero. I can't recall anyone in myth or legend who was "Masterful" at everything. There are those who are good in one area and those who are good in two or three.

 

The problem with "jack of all trades" being encouraged is that it's pretty much impossible to roleplay sensibly. You want to develop a mage character? Cool. Do you want to get to level 60? Well, you better pick up that bow and start using it in combat. Or start donning shields and heavy armor for a while. Are you roleplaying some chivalrous knight? Great! But be ready to lockpick, sneak and pickpocket to have access to that dragon armor perk and finish the 2h/heavy armor trees. You really lose a feel for what your character is and what you want to do with that character, when that character simply must do everything there is in the game - you can't choose to forgo something, you must eventually do everything. Which is unpleasant, at least for me.

 

Not that you can't have a chivalrous knight who lockpicks or a mage that wears heavy armor - the only issue is you're forced to do this to get anywhere. You can choose not to, but then, well, goodluck doing anything as a pure mage past level 20.

 

The idea is that more talents = more options. The power is gained by increasing in level and therefore having access to better gear. The amount of options you have is increased by the perks you acquire. Simple.

 

Then what is the purpose of the rest of a talent tree if you only need to spend five points to become more than proficient in a given skill?

 

A friend is currently level 28 and he's a pure destruction/illusion mage, and he's told me that the game is ridiculously easy on adept difficulty.

 

In what way? Firstly, everyone's experience is different, I'm speaking from my experience and I certainly believe magic is not in a good state. Secondly, your friend may just have done a bunch of "easy" quests and spent a lot of time cultivating the rest of the gear. My character is level 50 right now, and I can assure you magic is beyond awful. What's your opinion? Let your friend speak for himself.

 

No way. I gain several thousands of gold in minutes by smithing or clearing dungeons, and I was doing so even before hitting level 15. Horses are priced just right, unless you don't try to make money, and therefore they'll obviously be too expensive.

 

Believe me, I'm rolling in gold, it's not hard to get gold at all. Even with fences being scarce and your inventory space limited, it's just too easy to make a living stealing everything in sight or just selling a few rare items after every quest.

 

Nope, sorry. Archers are extremely easy to kill. Dodging arrows is a piece of cake, and their lack of significant armour makes them ridiculously easy to take down.

 

On the quests I've been on, Archers have had tons of health, switch to dual wielding swords when I get close, and fling arrows so powerful they take away 1/3 my health when I don't even realize they're there. They tend to stay in the back and in the shadows, surprising me and making me sigh when I die out of nowhere from a random burst of damage. But if everyone else thinks they're not overpowered, I suppose I wouldn't touch them in a patch.

 

That perk is acquired at level 100, isn't it? By then your character, if there was such a system, would have grown a lot physically with all the muscle. It makes sense that he can carry heavy armour around with much less effort. Other than that, you sort of need powerful weapons and stuff to take dragons, trolls and armies of enemies down.

 

You can reason it away with whatever in-game logic you want, the fact is, heavy armor has no combat downside if you are not encumbered by using it. Why pick light armor or cloth over it? Neither give bonuses that are worth talking about. It's strictly unbalanced.

 

It's also acquired at skill rank 70, not 100, so it's not /that/ difficult to acquire if you wear it from the start of the game until about level 30.

 

So being able to craft dragon armour is garbage? Heavy armour not weighing anything is garbage? Etc.

 

Oh no, you don't get to use "etc." after stating the only two decent end-game perks. And anyway, if you're not using heavy armor, neither of those end tier perks matter. I'm talking about

 

Paralyzing attack for 1h, bows and 2h

All the "master X" perk for any magical tree - it simply reduces mana costs of master level spells to the point where you can actually use them!

Crouch taking you out of combat for a second

Fire making enemies run away in fear (who ever wants this? they just run away and aggro more enemies for you to fight)

The master heavy/light armor skills are kind of weak (10% dodge for light, 10% damage reflect for heavy armor), 10% dodge is nearly equivalent to 10% damage reduction (actually slightly more, about 11-12% damage reduction) which you can acquire on any half-way decent ring at about level 30. 10% damage reflect I can't speak for since I don't have the talent yet, but it seems weak.

 

other talents like

"persuasion is 30% more effective"

or

"you won't trigger pressure plates"

Are also huge wastes.

 

If you're trying to survive a dragon-slaying, dungeon-clearing game just by conjuring stuff then you're doing it wrong. At most, conjuration is just an interesting gimmicky skill, so it shouldn't matter whether what you summon is crazily powerful or not. You need to be able to fight by yourself. Plus, you have companions to help you out. Conjuration is mainly used as a last resort or as a distraction, not as a main weapon, and almost every player will probably agree.

 

What? I'm doing it wrong? It's a magical discipline. So you're saying I picked the wrong tree? Why is it in the game? They should have taken it out like mysticism. It's this kind of attitude of the playerbase that will end up with TESVI having 5 skill trees to pick from.

 

Conjuration SHOULD be a respectable reasonable choice for a player to "major" in. In fact, you seem to be totally against this idea entirely. That's fine! But some players may enjoy "Majoring" and restricting themselves to one or two skill trees. They should be able to. That's what "specialization" is all about. That's why I even bother playing RPGs. It's apart of "character development". Making choices and following through with them in a virtual world.

 

Because 200+ perks aren't enough?

 

Oh now I know you're trolling me. Todd may be able to get away with "200 endings in fallout 3" but you can't get away with this.

 

There are 18 skill trees. There are about 9 talents per tree. Some perks can only be increased by 1. Some can only be increased by 2. Some are 3 or 5. If we approximate this at 3 levels per perk, that does definitely put things over 200 perks, in reality there are only unique 162 perks, but unique is really being generous here, since the 2h, 1h, and bows all share the same end tier perk and all the magic schools share the same end tier perk, so really there are probably less than 150 unique perks. And of the combat perks, at least half increase damage by X%, only a few add interesting or defining aspects (like bleed on hit, or disintegrate when health is low).

 

So no, unless for some reason you think more, balanced and interesting perks to choose from is bad, I think there aren't enough perks. You're at most given at most two different paths to follow on a given skill discipline, while most RPGs are gracious enough to offer 3 different routes of advancement. We can strive to do better here I think. There really isn't much of a choice to make when one perk offers a straight up +100% damage and another far up the tree offers you 25 bleed damage over 5 seconds.

 

I value what you have to say, even if I suspect you of not being entirely serious here, but I'm going to have to disagree with all of your rebuttals and question whether we've both been playing the same game or at least share even remotely similar ideas on what an ORPG should play like.

 

edit: Oh and if you think 200 perks is "a lot" you haven't played many video games. Have you seen how crazy some games can get?

 

 

Over 700 "perks"

Edited November 15, 2011 by fourtylashes

[Topher1]

I agree with you, Forty. I honestly feel like playing Oblivion until mods come out to change Skyrim. I have a copy now for PC seeing as I find myself getting pretty bored of the PS3 version.

I feel like I will be flamed for this but I don't find the game so much an RPG as it is an Action / Adventure game. I don't find Archers too OP but I do find some things annoying like the troll and the damn Snow Saber Cat lurking on the hill to the Greybeards. That's one of the quests I get early into the game, come on!!!!

I'm supposed to believe people bring supplies up that hill? What the hell does that person use as a weapon?

 

I also dislike how I can't have pants as well as bracers + gloves on.

 

I also want to complain about the Deer if you do bring out a patch.

Elk is basically a prehistoric deer (I don't know the name) and the other "elk" is a f***in hairy White tail buck.

The "deer" is a Caribou, and the only deer (or i guess "elk") skulls around are Mule Deer which are not even in the game.

That brings me great frustration as you can see.

 

I know it's supposedly a Role Playing Game, but I don't feel it as one. Lots of simple things could have been done better which over all would have improved the game. (Mostly in terms of UI and Companion interactions for me)

 

I enjoy the game but I wish I didn't buy my Ps3 copy. =\

 

Anyways, these are just my personal opinions. I get there is die-hard fans out there who will defend this game to the death; I just don't feel the same and am let down by it. Even more so knowing that my specialization is going to mean nothing if I want to progress to top tier gear. I get I don't HAVE to play as a mage / thief / assassin / warrior / everything but the fact I'll be forced at some point to play as them all just to get top level, kills some immersion for me.

[vertex23]

I agree with some of the things you're saying, but I'm curious...Do you need to hit level cap? Once I max out my three trees for my character, any left over perks will most likely go into that fourth skill (Alchemy in this case), then leveling will come to a creeping halt. That's fine. The game scales with you, so it's not really twisting your arm to level up. If you want to define yourself a very specific roll (e.g. Conjuration with a little bit of Destruction), then just be prepared to level up slower than a jack of all trades? It's not the end of the world if you don't hit 999/999/999 stats by the time you finish the main quest.

 

Edit: Also, Archers are OP? Sure, they do a ton of damage at the cost of being easy to dodge. Whose fault is it that you rambo'd into a fort without surveying the enemy location and just got plucked away by their "strategically placed" range?

Edited November 15, 2011 by vertex23