When Beth wins, and mods cost money...

[CiderMuffin]

 

But also remember that we can cry as much as we like at the prospect, but future open-world games on Beth's new engine will have mods that can only be hosted on Beth.net, so everything is changing no matter what people may say here.[/size]

This is just guessing, right? If they actually said that, I'd imagine it would be impossible to not hear about it. I don't think mods will be exclusive to Beth.net.

 

That's just Zanity's conspiracy theory. It's founded on completely nothing.

Edited July 7, 2016 by CiderMuffin

[midtek]

The source zanity. You must believe in his sight. Fear him.

[NorthWolf]

 

So instead of everyone getting a chance at making a little money from their hard work, only a chosen few get to do so? How is that any better?

 

 

Because in my point of view, modding is a hobby and benefits from having a relatively open community. Creating a mod should be something you do for fun and to engage people and should have absolutely nothing to do with making money. And my statements regarding spec work are completely honest concerns on my part. How is it better that Bethesda devalues your work by giving you a pittance for it?

[Reneer]

Because in my point of view, modding is a hobby and benefits from having a relatively open community. Creating a mod should be something you do for fun and to engage people and should have absolutely nothing to do with making money. And my statements regarding spec work are completely honest concerns on my part. How is it better that Bethesda devalues your work by giving you a pittance for it?

Bethesda currently doesn't give us anything. Mod users barely give us anything. I'd rather a system where I can set my own price for a mod and have to give half of what I make to Bethesda than to make nothing. Your belief that modding should be just a hobby is fine. But please don't try and tell me what I should believe about it.

 

Except by having the modding scene remain a non-paywall one more people are going to work on it, the community won't be cutthroat, you won't need to make a professional mod page nor would you need to really advertise, it's easier on mod reviewers, it builds trust among mod users due to the fact there would be a lot of outrage if people paid for a mod that ended up in a broken state and the community won't close itself up and keep all the secrets to themselves, modder resources will stop being a thing with paid mods because no one wants to share their work if they aren't getting a piece of the pie and of course all it'll do is introduce a new wave of mod piracy like the one that was already sprouting up last year when they announced paid mods.

 

You claim "no one donates" but I've seen modders talk about getting donations on this site and some have opened up patreons that are doing well. No you won't be able to live off it but forcing people to pay for mods isn't a good idea to try and make a living when there is no guarantee that said mod will work or cause problems. All we'll see is an overbloated system of paid mods where it's still a select few who managed to get big get money and the people who can't push their mods as well, have no names for themselves and/or are new to the modding scene after a year or more, well their mods would get ignored.

 

If no one donates to you I'm sorry but that's still a better system then forcing a price tag on it and causing problems.

You make a whole lot of assertions but provide no evidence to back any of them up.

 

We'll start with your assertion that "the community will keep all their secrets to themselves" and "modder resources will stop being a thing". I can easily enough point to examples of why this is wrong: StackExchange is one, while OpenGameArt is another. And let's not forget stackoverflow. All the information and resources on those sites are created by individuals who are (most likely) in their various fields to make a living. And yet they go out to these websites after working their 9-5 job and help others who have questions that need answers. And that isn't even counting all the open-source programs and resources out there also created by artists and programmers who also work in those fields.

 

As for "people being outraged when a Bethesda update breaks a mod they paid for", there are incredibly few mods that are actually "broken" when Bethesda releases a patch. The most notable in the current Fallout 4 modding scene are those that modified the Flash / Scaleform menus - when Bethesda updated those parts of the game, that did break some UI mods, causing CTDs. But here is the thing: Those CTD issues were either fixed in a day or two by the mod authors or people simply stopped using the particular mod.

 

Now, before you go ahead and say "but what if people had paid for that mod", people pay for things that "break" all the time and the people know those things will "break" given enough time. Let's say in the future you go and buy Mod A from Bethesda.net right after the release of Fallout 5. Two months later, Bethesda releases a patch for Fallout 5 that breaks Mod A. Mod A cost you roughly $1 when you bought it two months ago. Are you honestly going to be "outraged" when that mod breaks because of something the mod author had absolutely no control over? Are you honestly going to be angry when you spend way more money each day on coffee than you spent on that mod? Because, honestly, if someone is going to get "outraged" over losing a dollar, they have their priorities a little backwards.

 

Because it's just nothing but skins and animations. Bethesda's games are more then that which ends up becoming a problem. There is also the fact that Second Life fixs this by forcing mods to all be placed on their own marketplace unlike Bethesda's games, then it brings up my previous point of new members who have nothing to them will most likely not make anything because it's drowned out by a ton of other mods or just people unsure of buying stuff they're unsure of in terms of quality.

 

Second Life's community also not completely honest as I got stories of how some modders ripped content from other games or mods and successfully selling said ripped content. It got so bad at one point two members sued Linden Labs for not doing anything about the pirates. Like holy crap, if you think the recent Bethesda.net mod theft is bad Second Life users and content creators have been dealing with this for years.

 

Hell, the simple idea of a community run marketplace around game items or mods is downright awful and we see evidence all around of it being a garbage idea. From Second Life's Marketplace piracy to the recent CS:GO gambling controversy clearly the best idea is to not include real money for this stuff unless if it's by choice through donation.

First of all, you aren't forced to put your items on the SL Marketplace if you don't want to do that. You can easily sell all your items in-game without ever worrying about the SL Marketplace. Secondly, no community is "completely honest" as we have all seen recently with the mod thefts on Bethesda.net. Bad actors exist in every community, whether that community is free or paid. Third, Second Life content creation is way more than just "skins and animations", but it seems you weren't aware of that fact.

 

Because they're just skins. With Bethesda's games you have scripts, location changes, engine modifications, different types of lighting, landscape changes, sometimes people change how NPCs work, sometimes people write in entirely new ways for an NPC to act and then you have stuff like compatibility patches. Bethesda modding isn't just cosmetic crap, it's filled with stuff that can cause problems if people don't know what they're doing.

 

Though to be honest just being cosmetic doesn't mean it's ok either. There is also the fact if you want it like Second Life's you'd need to make the marketplace in-game, you'd need to integrate the marketplace into the game, you'd need to do a lot of stuff that in the end would limit what modders can do and would essentially be the death of the Nexus and other legit mod hosting sites.

Any evidence for your doom and gloom?

 

First, the "marketplace" is already implemented in-game. Go look at Fallout 4's in-game mod-browser for a perfect example. But let's switch gears and talk a little bit about how doing something like Second Life in fact does not limit mod authors at all.

 

I've had an account on Second Life for almost 12 years. I've seen first hand how Second Life has grown and changed throughout pretty much all of its existence. I've seen spam attacks on Welcome Island. I watched c-sprites flitter around the old Archery targets. Everything can be changed within Second Life, just as everything can be changed within Bethesda games. You can write scripts, you can create NPCs, make new models and textures. All of those things are possible within Second Life if you have the skill. To say that content creators are limited in Second Life is flat out wrong.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Reneer

[steve40]

Like it or lump it, Beth is going from strength to strength- building its OWN first class engine for the first time, and working on record numbers of titles, each with incredible sales potential. Even after all these years, no other developer has bothered to copy the (very simplistic and easy to replicate) formula of Fallout and Elder Scrolls- so for the type of open-world games Beth makes, gamers have no other option, and neither do modders.

 

And now, with the emergence of the gaming console as conceptually the same as a good mid-end gaming PC (and Microsoft with Scorpio and Windows 10 is fusing the PC and console next year), paid modding cannot be ignored by Bethesda any longer, so paid modding is coming with 100% unstoppable certainty.

 

My question is this. What form do you think paid modding should take?

 

1) pay per mod, with the mod author setting the price.

2) pay per mod with Beth using some formula to set the price

3) subscription model, where paying a monthly sub gets you access to mods in general, and Beth works out how to divvy up the subs amongst mod authors

4) mods as paid DLC, where beth approaches mod authors to build DLC packages that combine a bunch of mods- tested to work with one another (and maybe on a theme)

5) 'humble bundle' buyer 'guilt' driven model where the user pays what he/she thinks the mod is worth

6) 'season pass' where one payment gets you access to all mods.

7) so other scheme I haven't listed

 

REMEMBER, paid mods mean ABSOLUTE censorship, and mods only on Beth.net. But also remember that we can cry as much as we like at the prospect, but future open-world games on Beth's new engine will have mods that can only be hosted on Beth.net, so everything is changing no matter what people may say here.

 

[lelcat]

 

 

Because in my point of view, modding is a hobby and benefits from having a relatively open community. Creating a mod should be something you do for fun and to engage people and should have absolutely nothing to do with making money. And my statements regarding spec work are completely honest concerns on my part. How is it better that Bethesda devalues your work by giving you a pittance for it?

 

You don't get to decide whether someone else is allowed to make money off it. And as I said multiple times, The amount of effort being put into a mod is limited unless money is involved. Modders will work harder, much harder on something they will get paid for. Getting paid for the countless hours of work adds value to a mod, because hard cash is worth more than a thank you on a forum. Getting thanked and recognition on a forum is very nice indeed, but it does not beat getting paid. So stop acting like money is poison. And Bethesda knows that. They are anticipating the trend of paid mods just like Valve does. This will not make free mods disappear, but mods below a certain quality treshold will be free, because the mod author cant or wont for time constraint fix all the rough edges that a paid mod would not be allowed to have.

 

And to what rener said. About mods breaking. Most mods do not break on new game updates. Unless they use hacky tools like the tools used before the creation kit came out. I never used those tools, and I think they are great tools that allowed early modding. But it is not Bethesda's job to make sure these mods do not break on new updates.

 

 

 

 

Hell, the simple idea of a community run marketplace around game items or mods is downright awful and we see evidence all around of it being a garbage idea. From Second Life's Marketplace piracy to the recent CS:GO gambling controversy clearly the best idea is to not include real money for this stuff unless if it's by choice through donation.

Donations are a much worse way of paying for mods. Because it is all guilt-based and there is no clear conventions. However with a clear price tag, all the responsibilities are clearly defined. There is no arguments on what a donation should be. If you buy a mod then there is a certain hard level of quality associated. It has to work, because the customer paid for it. Also it is a much better way to pay for things. You get what you pay for. Instead of you pay how much you think the thing is worth and how much you like the guy who made it.

 

To anyone who is using the word "paywall". Stop doing it. As if getting paid for work is poison. You are sitting behind a paywall in your real life job too, refusing to do any work unless paid for. Why do people always have to act like they are freeing political prisoners when they complain about a price tag?

Edited July 8, 2016 by lelcat

[Alexotero1219]

 

Because in my point of view, modding is a hobby and benefits from having a relatively open community. Creating a mod should be something you do for fun and to engage people and should have absolutely nothing to do with making money. And my statements regarding spec work are completely honest concerns on my part. How is it better that Bethesda devalues your work by giving you a pittance for it?

Bethesda currently doesn't give us anything. Mod users barely give us anything. I'd rather a system where I can set my own price for a mod and have to give half of what I make to Bethesda than to make nothing. Your belief that modding should be just a hobby is fine. But please don't try and tell me what I should believe about it.

 

Except by having the modding scene remain a non-paywall one more people are going to work on it, the community won't be cutthroat, you won't need to make a professional mod page nor would you need to really advertise, it's easier on mod reviewers, it builds trust among mod users due to the fact there would be a lot of outrage if people paid for a mod that ended up in a broken state and the community won't close itself up and keep all the secrets to themselves, modder resources will stop being a thing with paid mods because no one wants to share their work if they aren't getting a piece of the pie and of course all it'll do is introduce a new wave of mod piracy like the one that was already sprouting up last year when they announced paid mods.

 

You claim "no one donates" but I've seen modders talk about getting donations on this site and some have opened up patreons that are doing well. No you won't be able to live off it but forcing people to pay for mods isn't a good idea to try and make a living when there is no guarantee that said mod will work or cause problems. All we'll see is an overbloated system of paid mods where it's still a select few who managed to get big get money and the people who can't push their mods as well, have no names for themselves and/or are new to the modding scene after a year or more, well their mods would get ignored.

 

If no one donates to you I'm sorry but that's still a better system then forcing a price tag on it and causing problems.

You make a whole lot of assertions but provide no evidence to back any of them up.

 

We'll start with your assertion that "the community will keep all their secrets to themselves" and "modder resources will stop being a thing". I can easily enough point to examples of why this is wrong: StackExchange is one, while OpenGameArt is another. And let's not forget stackoverflow. All the information and resources on those sites are created by individuals who are (most likely) in their various fields to make a living. And yet they go out to these websites after working their 9-5 job and help others who have questions that need answers. And that isn't even counting all the open-source programs and resources out there also created by artists and programmers who also work in those fields.

 

As for "people being outraged when a Bethesda update breaks a mod they paid for", there are incredibly few mods that are actually "broken" when Bethesda releases a patch. The most notable in the current Fallout 4 modding scene are those that modified the Flash / Scaleform menus - when Bethesda updated those parts of the game, that did break some UI mods, causing CTDs. But here is the thing: Those CTD issues were either fixed in a day or two by the mod authors or people simply stopped using the particular mod.

 

Now, before you go ahead and say "but what if people had paid for that mod", people pay for things that "break" all the time and the people know those things will "break" given enough time. Let's say in the future you go and buy Mod A from Bethesda.net right after the release of Fallout 5. Two months later, Bethesda releases a patch for Fallout 5 that breaks Mod A. Mod A cost you roughly $1 when you bought it two months ago. Are you honestly going to be "outraged" when that mod breaks because of something the mod author had absolutely no control over? Are you honestly going to be angry when you spend way more money each day on coffee than you spent on that mod? Because, honestly, if someone is going to get "outraged" over losing a dollar, they have their priorities a little backwards.

 

Because it's just nothing but skins and animations. Bethesda's games are more then that which ends up becoming a problem. There is also the fact that Second Life fixs this by forcing mods to all be placed on their own marketplace unlike Bethesda's games, then it brings up my previous point of new members who have nothing to them will most likely not make anything because it's drowned out by a ton of other mods or just people unsure of buying stuff they're unsure of in terms of quality.

 

Second Life's community also not completely honest as I got stories of how some modders ripped content from other games or mods and successfully selling said ripped content. It got so bad at one point two members sued Linden Labs for not doing anything about the pirates. Like holy crap, if you think the recent Bethesda.net mod theft is bad Second Life users and content creators have been dealing with this for years.

 

Hell, the simple idea of a community run marketplace around game items or mods is downright awful and we see evidence all around of it being a garbage idea. From Second Life's Marketplace piracy to the recent CS:GO gambling controversy clearly the best idea is to not include real money for this stuff unless if it's by choice through donation.

First of all, you aren't forced to put your items on the SL Marketplace if you don't want to do that. You can easily sell all your items in-game without ever worrying about the SL Marketplace. Secondly, no community is "completely honest" as we have all seen recently with the mod thefts on Bethesda.net. Bad actors exist in every community, whether that community is free or paid. Third, Second Life content creation is way more than just "skins and animations", but it seems you weren't aware of that fact.

 

Because they're just skins. With Bethesda's games you have scripts, location changes, engine modifications, different types of lighting, landscape changes, sometimes people change how NPCs work, sometimes people write in entirely new ways for an NPC to act and then you have stuff like compatibility patches. Bethesda modding isn't just cosmetic crap, it's filled with stuff that can cause problems if people don't know what they're doing.

 

Though to be honest just being cosmetic doesn't mean it's ok either. There is also the fact if you want it like Second Life's you'd need to make the marketplace in-game, you'd need to integrate the marketplace into the game, you'd need to do a lot of stuff that in the end would limit what modders can do and would essentially be the death of the Nexus and other legit mod hosting sites.

Any evidence for your doom and gloom?

 

First, the "marketplace" is already implemented in-game. Go look at Fallout 4's in-game mod-browser for a perfect example. But let's switch gears and talk a little bit about how doing something like Second Life in fact does not limit mod authors at all.

 

I've had an account on Second Life for almost 12 years. I've seen first hand how Second Life has grown and changed throughout pretty much all of its existence. I've seen spam attacks on Welcome Island. I watched c-sprites flitter around the old Archery targets. Everything can be changed within Second Life, just as everything can be changed within Bethesda games. You can write scripts, you can create NPCs, make new models and textures. All of those things are possible within Second Life if you have the skill. To say that content creators are limited in Second Life is flat out wrong.

 

 

 

You have every right to make money off your work man I just want to make this clear. Although I also want to make it very clear that when money gets added into the equation the whole entire landscape changes completely dude. Just look at youtube and even E-sports for examples.

 

If bethesda implements a successful paid modding system it will not in anyway end up just you and bethesda making money off your work lmao. Its going to end up being you, bethesda, valve, google, and possibly even hosts of mod publishing companies that will spring up looking to make as much money as possible off of an emerging market. Oh and none, not a single one, of these entities will actually give a crap about you or giving you a fair cut. Thats just the way the industry is right now.

 

Honest question. You think people will still make modders resources for free? Because it seems more likely to me that "mod publishers" will start springing up and offering idk, say, free advertisements for your mods or hell even havok licensing but offering this stuff in a contract that makes you sign another 20% of your income away and you loose distribution control of your work. People might want to make modders resources sure but after a year or so I honestly think major mod authors will be caught in contracts that dont allow it.

 

Im all for mod authors making money but you only need to look at other areas of the gaming industry to see how rapidly introducing money into something drastically changes the landscape.

 

Maybe im being an alarmist but mod authors should really take a hard look at how they want to make money off their work and who they want to be dealing with. Valve is a REALLY sketchy company and their involvement, imo, can only mean a bad day for everyone.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Alexotero1219

[Reneer]

You have every right to make money off your work man I just want to make this clear. Although I also want to make it very clear that when money gets added into the equation the whole entire landscape changes completely dude. Just look at youtube and even E-sports for examples.

I know what happens when money is added to the equation. I've been studying industrial-organizational psychology at the graduate-school level for the past 6 years.

 

If bethesda implements a successful paid modding system it will not in anyway end up just you and bethesda making money off your work lmao. Its going to end up being you, bethesda, valve, google, and possibly even hosts of mod publishing companies that will spring up looking to make as much money as possible off of an emerging market. Oh and none, not a single one, of these entities will actually give a crap about you or giving you a fair cut. Thats just the way the industry is right now.

See, the thing is that Bethesda.net completely cuts Valve out of the equation by design. And Google? Did you just throw them in the mix 'cause they're a big company or something?

 

Honest question. You think people will still make modders resources for free? Because it seems more likely to me that "mod publishers" will start springing up and offering idk, say, free advertisements for your mods or hell even havok licensing but offering this stuff in a contract that makes you sign another 20% of your income away and you loose distribution control of your work. People might want to make modders resources sure but after a year or so I honestly think major mod authors will be caught in contracts that dont allow it.

I directly point to several websites that exchange information and assets for free, have done so for years, and you doom and gloom that mod authors will be caught up in 'contracts" by "mod publishers". Sorry if I don't subscribe to your slippery-slope.

 

Im all for mod authors making money but you only need to look at other areas of the gaming industry to see how rapidly introducing money into something drastically changes the landscape.

 

Maybe im being an alarmist but mod authors should really take a hard look at how they want to make money off their work and who they want to be dealing with. Valve is a REALLY sketchy company and their involvement, imo, can only mean a bad day for everyone.

Again, Valve is out of the picture. Bethesda.net does everything that Valve was doing regarding paid mods and all of it is under Bethesda / Zenimax's roof. Thus, any money to be made will simply be between the mod author and Bethesda, if paid mods are allowed on Bethesda.net.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Reneer

[Alexotero1219]

 

You have every right to make money off your work man I just want to make this clear. Although I also want to make it very clear that when money gets added into the equation the whole entire landscape changes completely dude. Just look at youtube and even E-sports for examples.

I know what happens when money is added to the equation. I've been studying industrial-organizational psychology at the graduate-school level for the past 6 years.

 

If bethesda implements a successful paid modding system it will not in anyway end up just you and bethesda making money off your work lmao. Its going to end up being you, bethesda, valve, google, and possibly even hosts of mod publishing companies that will spring up looking to make as much money as possible off of an emerging market. Oh and none, not a single one, of these entities will actually give a crap about you or giving you a fair cut. Thats just the way the industry is right now.

See, the thing is that Bethesda.net completely cuts Valve out of the equation by design. And Google? Did you just throw them in the mix 'cause they're a big company or something?

 

Honest question. You think people will still make modders resources for free? Because it seems more likely to me that "mod publishers" will start springing up and offering idk, say, free advertisements for your mods or hell even havok licensing but offering this stuff in a contract that makes you sign another 20% of your income away and you loose distribution control of your work. People might want to make modders resources sure but after a year or so I honestly think major mod authors will be caught in contracts that dont allow it.

I directly point to several websites that exchange information and assets for free, have done so for years, and you doom and gloom that mod authors will be caught up in 'contracts" by "mod publishers". Sorry if I don't subscribe to your slippery-slope.

 

Im all for mod authors making money but you only need to look at other areas of the gaming industry to see how rapidly introducing money into something drastically changes the landscape.

 

Maybe im being an alarmist but mod authors should really take a hard look at how they want to make money off their work and who they want to be dealing with. Valve is a REALLY sketchy company and their involvement, imo, can only mean a bad day for everyone.

Again, Valve is out of the picture. Bethesda.net does everything that Valve was doing regarding paid mods and all of it is under Bethesda / Zenimax's roof. Thus, any money to be made will simply be between the mod author and Bethesda, if paid mods are allowed on Bethesda.net.

 

 

Firstly, Google was added as part of that list because of their behavior. For example Google purchased youtube 1 year after its creation because they saw the money to be made. After googles purchase of youtube they forced content creators to pay 50% of their total revenue to google in order to both use youtube itself and to cover for the search engine that directs people to their content. It is very easy to imagine a situation where google, either via lawsuit or aggressive purchases, forces itself into the paid modding market the same way they have forced themselves into literally every other market that involves games or technology. To ignore this would mean you're essentially ignoring all of googles past behavior as a large company.

 

Secondly Beth.net doesnt cut anyone out of the equation at all. There are loads of ways other companies such as valve could enter the market. Creating their own mod distribution platform for example.

 

Thirdly, there is a huge difference between exchanging information and assets that are already free and giving away assets or information someone intends to use in order to gain revenue. If you honestly think a mod author would give away assets he is using to make money to someone else to make money with I disagree. Doing so would literally undercut his own bottom line which most people simply wont do.

 

As for the mod publishers thing you only to look at how youtube works, or how twitch works, or how E-sports works, or how game development works, or how literally any other aspect of the gaming industry that makes significant sums of money works to know that publishers will start to pop up. The moment people started making large amounts of money on youtube Machinima turned itself into a publisher for channels and thats just one example. I dont know how you can possibly envision any part of content creation in the video games industry without publishers honestly.

 

Again I would not cut valve or other companies out of the market just because of bethesda.net. If they think they can make enough money a large company like valve will find some way to enter the market. Thats just a fact in general. Even if valve and all other companies are somehow locked out of the market (unlikely) this isnt a counterpoint to my main point which is that mod authors should seriously consider what they are getting in a paid modding deal and that adding money into the equation would drastically change the community and the way it has worked for 14 years now. Its just unavoidable.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2016 by Alexotero1219

[PoliteRaider]

 

Thirdly, there is a huge difference between exchanging information and assets that are already free and giving away assets or information someone intends to use in order to gain revenue. If you honestly think a mod author would give away assets he is using to make money to someone else to make money with I disagree. Doing so would literally undercut his own bottom line which most people simply wont do.

 

... you're talking to a mod author and telling them what mod authors will and won't do.

 

http://i.imgsafe.org/1912a2d42a.jpg