Total Realism Overhaul

[Mansh00ter]

So does parrying work exactly like blocking now? Like, will one mouse button be in control of swinging both hands, and the other mouse button the block button?

 

No, you still can attack with left and right hand, including power attacks, but when you press both buttons, you parry. You no longer can execute dual normal and power attacks, which is just as well because with 4x damage it would make dual wielding too powerful.

[Lokiron]

So does parrying work exactly like blocking now? Like, will one mouse button be in control of swinging both hands, and the other mouse button the block button?

 

No, you still can attack with left and right hand, including power attacks, but when you press both buttons, you parry. You no longer can execute dual normal and power attacks, which is just as well because with 4x damage it would make dual wielding too powerful.

 

This sounds to me like a mediocre fix for two reasons:

• Why remove dual attack? This is major part of DW in this game
  
• How about spellswords and their ability to parry?
  

 

Adding an extra button is the perfect fix for those dextrous enough to use ONE more button. Many gamers have mouse4 and mouse5 buttons.

In fact, this is exactly what Dual Wield Parrying does. This seems like a much more thorough fix to the DW parry (and similar) problem.

[Mansh00ter]

All this is open for discussion, of course, but there are a few things to consider:

 

You need a third party extender for hotkeys. I would like to avoid using any script extenders if possible.

 

Then, with 4x damage, a dual power attack will kill or allmost kill pretty much any generic (non-epic NPC). Dual Wield Parrying works because it leaves the vanilla damage in. Also consider that most NPC's don't even have packages for dual wielding, which makes the player kinda too special. So if I leave dual wield power attacks in, I will definitely nerf them. TRO is not supposed to have an I-WIN button.

 

As for spellswords... personally I think they don't need to parry. They can set people on fire and gut them while they're screaming. If I give them the ability to parry, they should be able to do so only if they have a valid weapon in the left hand. If it cannot be done like that, they shouldn't be able to parry at all. Also remember that magic in TRO is going to be a lot more potent than it is in vanilla. An armored, spell-flinging battle mage, with a weapon in one hand and a nasty spell in another must be balanced. Otherwise it might get too easy.

[Lokiron]

Fair enough. As long as your system supports many play-styles, even the ever problematic spellsword (love the archetype, but only rarely works). Your wish to avoid 3rd party extenders is very understandable as the Script Dragon required to run the aforementioned DW parry is currently not working :tongue:

 

But is leaves me with one question: What is the point of DW (in Skyrim) when dual attack is not possible? I never felt DW had much else to offer. Are the related perks really that good?

[Mansh00ter]

There is an alternate solution, which is also used by the DWP mod, which is to set the parry action to the right mouse button, but then you have no control over which hand you will be swinging with when using normal attacks while dual wielding. So you attack always with the left mouse button, parry with the right, and the (normal) attacks are executed randomly left and right.

This way would allow all other moves to remain, including power attacks.

 

But as I said, dual power attacks would then get nerfed, so that you may get maybe 1.4x the damage of a single handed power attack.

 

Hmm... I actually like this solution better. Left-right-left attacking with dual wielding is a bit cumbersome anyway, this might actually make it more enjoyable.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Mansh00ter

[chocolambot]

All this is open for discussion, of course, but there are a few things to consider:

 

You need a third party extender for hotkeys. I would like to avoid using any script extenders if possible.

 

Then, with 4x damage, a dual power attack will kill or allmost kill pretty much any generic (non-epic NPC). Dual Wield Parrying works because it leaves the vanilla damage in. Also consider that most NPC's don't even have packages for dual wielding, which makes the player kinda too special. So if I leave dual wield power attacks in, I will definitely nerf them. TRO is not supposed to have an I-WIN button.

 

As for spellswords... personally I think they don't need to parry. They can set people on fire and gut them while they're screaming. If I give them the ability to parry, they should be able to do so only if they have a valid weapon in the left hand. If it cannot be done like that, they shouldn't be able to parry at all. Also remember that magic in TRO is going to be a lot more potent than it is in vanilla. An armored, spell-flinging battle mage, with a weapon in one hand and a nasty spell in another must be balanced. Otherwise it might get too easy.

 

 

Manshooter, can I make a suggestion?

 

Reach out to the guy who made deadly combat, his non-Scriptdragon dual wield parry mod and his deadly combat mod already achiee most of the combat realism necessary for any fun. He could make a version in collaboration with your mod, so we don't have conflicts or dilute the workload with multiple mods doing the same thing.

 

I know your mod will be modular, but I already know I am sold on the deadly combat system, which IMHO is very realistic.

 

For instance, Dual Wielding in real life is about blocking with the left hand (long sword) and striking with the right, (dagger) - it's a japanese style, very effective with his mod.

 

I suggest you at least check it out, as it would be a shame to waste ll your effort on a system soemone has already achieved.

 

Anyway keep up the good work, this mod will be EPIC. :D

Edited March 3, 2012 by chocolambot

[Mansh00ter]

I did check it out, and in fact lots of features in TRO Combat Overhaul are inspired by Deadly Combat which by itself is an excellent mod - but unfortunately, it is not very realistic in my opinion. It doesn't do anything about NPC level health and damage distribution, for one, nor does it do much about magic - it is a melee-centric mod.

 

The way I am making TRO Combat Overhaul, it should be pretty much on par with Deadly Combat, albeit more hardcore and in my opinion offering a more consistent challenge throughout the game (not that DC has any fault there, it's the vanilla game setup that's problematic). When it comes to basic features (timed blocks, DW parry, hit staggers, NPC reactions) they will be pretty similar - on top of that TRO Combat Overhaul will add a comprehensive wounding system, combat fatigue, healing methods overhaul, in-depth magic combat overhaul etc.

 

Of course, I will do my best to make TRO compatible with Deadly Combat, so if you prefer using DC, you will be able to.

[chocolambot]

I did check it out, and in fact lots of features in TRO Combat Overhaul are inspired by Deadly Combat which by itself is an excellent mod - but unfortunately, it is not very realistic in my opinion. It doesn't do anything about NPC level health and damage distribution, for one, nor does it do much about magic - it is a melee-centric mod.

 

The way I am making TRO Combat Overhaul, it should be pretty much on par with Deadly Combat, albeit more hardcore and in my opinion offering a more consistent challenge throughout the game (not that DC has any fault there, it's the vanilla game setup that's problematic). When it comes to basic features (timed blocks, DW parry, hit staggers, NPC reactions) they will be pretty similar - on top of that TRO Combat Overhaul will add a comprehensive wounding system, combat fatigue, healing methods overhaul, in-depth magic combat overhaul etc.

 

Of course, I will do my best to make TRO compatible with Deadly Combat, so if you prefer using DC, you will be able to.

 

Fair enough!! Maybe you could ask the author of DC to help you with the combat? Not that you couldn't do it yourslef, but it might speed things along as you are covering a lot of bases.

[Albin0gh0st]

Mansh00ter, If you could apply (not a modder so here is some made up jargon) "BlockState 1 for x time" for half of the length of the attack animation, every time you attack, then simply by attacking you would have that brief moment of pseudo-blocking, i.e. a parry. but still be vulnerable after the follow through. it would add another layer of timing to get that perfect strike in.

[Galacticat42]

A few things that I'd like to pitch in.

 

In Papyrus/Script Dragon you could always make a divisor for the health pool of any NPC and PC including named ones (so you could divide all health by 10 or something) OR you could set up a ratio that'll set a more dynamic health pool for all NPC's, which quite frankly would require half a day just to piece an algorithm together, but it'll be effective. Doing it this way can potentially cause any NPC mods to automatically be compatible with your mod - assuming your mod is later in the load order.

 

@Albin0gh0st

 

Doing that would be excessively difficult by both the modder and the user. Say you have the weapon speed perk, you'll need reflexes down to the millisecond.

 

I suggest that you run a check on dual wield attacking if any mob within a 10 yard radius is also attacking. If this comes back true, then the strike will count as a parry instead of a strike. After the parry the check will be cleared and the next swing will run the check. Assuming the mob has a slower swing rate than the PC, there will be ample time to put in damage. However, since this way would be insanely OP, I suggest increasing stagger chance on blocking when dual wielding.