RPG does not equal 'numbers'

[Bittermace]

I do like the leveling system dont get me wrong but in skyrim you really can master many different ways to fight. You can create whatever type of character you wantI bet not a single one of us has the same character setup

[darkblayd]

You guys can stubbornly stick to your own definitions of rpg if you want but...

 

Obviously when you remove the stats you don't necessarily remove the choices, or ability to select play styles, but what then do you think is the distinction between RPG and an Adventure game?

 

I see immersion and choices as a key theme in your definitions. Being a sandbox does not in itself earn RPG status.

 

 

-GTA games are sandboxes but not RPGs.

 

-I can choose to mostly use the hookshot in a Zelda game, and I can even name Link something else, but no matter what I choose to do I'm still playing as the hero of time or whatever. Not an RPG.

 

 

Choosing to adopt such a loose definition for the term is just silly. That's like saying Kirby is an RPG or something, it's that silly to me.

 

Obviously Skyrim still counts itself among RPGs, but less customization is not more. We lost the functionality to control how high we jump or how fast we run, that is not a less=more scenario. I'm a little afraid to see how they wrote it into the game to justify the loss/merger of an entire school of magic as well. There's been lore surrounding mysticism in at least the past two games, and if you read the in game books about it, it functioned far differently than any other school.

Edited November 20, 2011 by darkblayd

[hymhym]

Darn... Another long winded post... But can't be helped, tickled a nerve this topic did...

 

First of all, DnD did not start mainstream roleplaying, it created the whole concept. Secondly, original DnD did not have numbers for everything. In fact it had numbers for hardly anything at all, and those were in it, had almost zero impact on it's actual mechanics. Numbers, and their heavy use, is something that arose during the eighties, as the field developed a trend for trying to simulate reality. Incidentally, a lot of physics majors started to play, and design, RPGs around that time. It was this mindset that was then adopted by the fledgling CRPG industry. Which was an easy and logical step to take, but not necessarily the best one.

 

Since then, the emphasis on numbers has gone out and back into fashion several times. During the last decade a subset of numberless roleplayers developed, proclaiming the greatness that is numberless roleplaying. But these people seem to forget all the time, that while roleplaying is a universal psychological feature present in all humans and can be done spelndidily without numbers, games are based on math, and math means numbers. And when you translate a game into a computer program, it means even more numbers. How much you use those numbers and in what way, is a question of personal preference. Also they serve as a shared base line when people with different backgrounds choose to game together. Groups that have played long together, tend to develop their shared assumptions on what is possible and how probable it is to pull off, thus the decreased need for that standardized baseline presented by the numbers in the rules.

 

Numbers are not crutches, they are tools. Crutches are tools, very useful tools. As I'm sure anyone who ever has had the misfortune of breaking one's leg will attest to. Numbers are also very useful tools. We use them because they are clear and concise and easy to manipulate. And we have hundreds of years of study and research to help us use them. Going numberless is just pretending they aren't there. For logic itself is based on numbers, and all games are logical constructs. Just ask any game designer about it. And numbers by any other name are still numbers.

 

As for Skyrim as an RPG, and how good it is - all I can say is, that it is as good as you let it be. If you decide to burn through it with pure mechanical methodity, you can abuse it silly and break it in no time. Or you can take the tools it offers you, and create your own game, the kind that caters to your needs. I used to describe the CS as an integral part of the UI of Oblivion. It's the part where you tweak everything that annoys in the game to something that doesn't. Skyrim still hasn't got it's editor, so we have to do by with what we got. A good example of this is people complaining about the lack of hard core mode - you know the one from NV where you had to eat and sleep and stuff. And many people are calling for such a thing to be modded ASAP. But nothing is preventing you from playing Skyrim that way. I am playing it that way. You have food you can eat. Hell, you can first go and hunt your food, then skin the beast and make boots out of it's hide and soup from it's meat. Provided you remembered to collect some vegetables form the fields. And then take a nice nap afterwards. The only thing that is missing, is the one that forces you to do so - you know, the numbers.

 

And I too wish the game had this in build, so that we didn't have to mod it into it again. The amount of such mods for Oblivion should have made it's importance obvious to Bethesda. I want to have some detrimental effects if I find myself in a situation where I don't have food and water. I want poor choices to have consequences. And for that to happen I need numbers for it. But while we are waiting for the editor, I just roleplay it. No game in it yet, but it still beats playing Skyrim as a straight monster basher.

 

The same goes for the lack of stats. Cutting them of limits my options. It's a mechanical fact. Whether or not you yourself would ever have exercised your right to use that option is irrelevant. I would have, and now I can't, and in past games of the series I could. That is a legitimate critique of the game. It goes against customer expectations. Again, I just roleplay through all of it, but deep down hope that there were some mechanical implications for the choices I make. But them's the breaks as they say.

 

Oh, and just so we are clear on this - I have never said that Oblivion did it right. Or even Morrowind. All three of have done it poorly - and there are tons of mods out there that do it better, and there will be such mods for Skyrim too.

 

Critiquing something about Skyrim does not mean that one is defending Oblivion, or even Morrowind. All too often one comes across a situation where someone is offering constructive criticism about some facet of Skyrim, only to be smacked across the face with "Yeah, well Oblivion sucked!"

 

Yes we know, that's the reason I, and many others, play Oblivion with over 400 mods installed.

[Valamyr]

Hello everyone, My name is Val and I am a min/maxer.

 

Indeed the removal of attributes doesnt detract from my (admittedly modest) level of actual roleplaying in Skyrim.

 

It detracts from my number crunching. I love numbers. I like to min/max stats in RPGs. That doesn't sound as 'healthy' as saying it's harming your roleplaying, though, but people who hate simplification of stats essentially feel the same void as I did: pretty numbers taken away. I played CRPGs for 20 years I can face the truth now:

 

I'm addicted to the numbers. I don't really care about the immersive world, it's a nice backdrop, but the endorphin spikes come from making the numbers better, not the finishing moves. I'm willing to face that, because its true for most computer RPG players and MMORPG players. These games have little to do with theatrical roleplaying or living your character. For a huge amount of us, they're about the bars and the stats and the synergies and the multiplicatives and the caps and widening the power differentials. Sure, I want to do it on Ultra at 60FPS with tons of graphics mods, but ultimately the journey is about making my character into a God through numbers. That's why I'd rather have attributes.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Valamyr

[Moonlightsong]

There are numbers all over Skyrim. Percentages are numbers, Armor and Swords are rated in numbers. HP, MP and SP are measured in numbers. Just because there isn't a traditional Stats screen that displays them all in a list that doesn't mean that the numbers aren't there.

[JimboUK]

Numbers are the best way to determine a characters various skills, after all an RPG should be about character skill, not player skill.

[Valamyr]

There are numbers all over Skyrim. Percentages are numbers, Armor and Swords are rated in numbers. HP, MP and SP are measured in numbers. Just because there isn't a traditional Stats screen that displays them all in a list that doesn't mean that the numbers aren't there.

 

Oh sure, there are. Still, they removed attributes and i was trying to explain why it feels like a big loss to some fans of the series.

[Rennn]

I guess everyone has his/her own opinions about what an RPG "is".

For me, it's the story, the world itself and how my hero can act in relation to it. Which means a good story is important, I dont want to force myself to play the game and the more options I have to choose from the better. Some might think its great that the removed the "numbers". As far as I am concerned, it just means they simplyfied everything and reduced the options I have.

 

I feel "boxed in" in a game whose greatest feature is the "immersion" provided by its "sand-box" scenario: An Elder Scrolls game is a world where I can go where I want, do what I want, when I want and nobody is able to tell me "no" or "do it this way" (exception: Flying Dragons, Inaccessible areas, Bosses that are too strong to defeat, scripted Events/Quests etc...). Skyrim might have an open world but compared to the past, my options became more or less inconsequental. "Removing the numbers" means that "something" HAS to be lost.

 

Maybe numbers really are crutches. Maybe they help me comparing my alter ego to other characters. Maybe I like getting a statistical proof that I managed to improve my hero or do something.

Maybe I just play the game because I want to see the graphics. Or the stories behind the graphics. Everyone has their own favorite way of playing an RPG.

I just think its sad when an open world RPG like the "Elder Scrolls" starts to remove things because they're deemed unnecessary. If I delete part of a world, all that remains is a hole whose presence might or might not be noticed.

 

That's nice and all, but that's like saying "I'm going to remove the blister from my arm. Unfortunately, I may start to miss the blister. I hate it when things are taken out. Just add more, even if it's not so good." Removing numbers doesn't mean that any depth is lost; it means that depth can be more immersive because numbers have been replaced with unique quests.

[Moonlightsong]

There are numbers all over Skyrim. Percentages are numbers, Armor and Swords are rated in numbers. HP, MP and SP are measured in numbers. Just because there isn't a traditional Stats screen that displays them all in a list that doesn't mean that the numbers aren't there.

 

Oh sure, there are. Still, they removed attributes and i was trying to explain why it feels like a big loss to some fans of the series.

To be completely honest I never got why there multiple stats that needed to be leveled up. You level up "Two-handed weapons" then you also have to level up STR.

The one thing that I don't like, is that they got rid of the "acrobatics" skill.

[Rennn]

It would seem that some people have decided that my dislike of numbers means I dislike depth. This is not the case.

 

Really, Skyrim has as much in common with Drakan as DnD, but Skyrim is still every bit as much of an RPG as DnD because both place the emphasis squarely on personal decisions and role playing.

 

Numbers are not relevant to the definition of an RPG; it's how much the game lets you play a role that determines how much of an RPG the game is.

Therefore, Skyrim and DnD both are very much RPG's. It's games like "Trinity: soul of zil oi" or whatever the name is that we should be wary of calling RPGs. Mind, Trinity proclaimed itself an RPG, but as is typical of modern 'RPGs', there was no role playing or choice at all.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Rennn