LE Take the stupid out of the A.I.

[QDX2000]

If you want more stealth damage, enchant your gear with fortify archery...

I do about 200 damage with my war axe after maxing out enchanting, and as an Orc I can go up to 400 once a day. And that's for normal attacks, power attacks hit even harder. With bow sneak attacks you should be able to reach similar or higher values I think.

[Emuchan]

Great idea, one of my biggest criticism of Skyrim. Being a Thief feels so awful, it should be plain obvious if I get spotted in someone'S bedroom that I just robbed them and should not be met with the reaction "You are not supposed to be in here", they should immediately cry out for the guards and start attacking me.

[Harkonian]

There were some great suggestions in that post, but I didn't incorporate it into mine because it goes well beyond the scope of the intent of my mod suggestion. The additional behaviors ogridum wants would require actor voice-overs and way more complex AI programming. In addition, a path finding algorithm is one of the hardest computer science problems to get right -- which is why you still see issues with it in today's games, even though developers have been trying to nail it for the last 20+ years of gaming. In the interest of making the mod as achievable as possible, I'd like it to focus specifically on alert and detection behaviors.

 

That actually seems like a great name for the mod: Alert and Detection Assistance Mod -- ADAM.

 

I won't quote it cause it's so large, but Post #13 should be updated into the OP.

 

It has some nice parts to it, just maybe needs some condensing.

 

I really hope Bethesda has made things easier to alter things like the AI in this release. I don't know about the FO series of games, but I know oblivion had substantial AI mods. Ones like Reneer's Guard Overhaul did what they could, but the gaps were too large to fill in entirely; one would assume no such mods existed because there was no accessible routines for the AI available for edit.

[Harkonian]

That said, if I escape his line of sight and quietly sneak around behind him, I should have the option of performing a sneak attack without having to wait for him to lose his alert status.

 

Maybe experienced modders can chime in if this sort of thing was doable in Oblivion?

 

NPCs have three modes:

• 
   
  
• Mode #1: Normal
  
• Mode #2: Alerted, but no enemy sighted,
  
• Mode #3: Enemy sighted
   
  

In mode #2, you can still perform sneak attacks. However, your scenario would call for sneak attacks to work (sometimes?) from the back if the NPC is in mode #3. Essentially any attack from the back would have a chance of a sneak attack? Assuming this is doable, this could cause some unintended consequences. For example, shooting a dragon in the back as it does a strafing run over you could trigger a sneak attack -- which seems wrong, IMO. In addition, maneuvering behind NPCs during melee with a dagger could trigger a sneak attack as well, which also seems wrong.

 

I think the mod as I originally suggested would force improved tactics for stealthy players because the penalty if you are actually seen -- having to wait 30 minutes before being able to approach the NPC group again -- is high. Your suggestion would dilute this quite a bit as well as introduce possible game-breaking changes.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Harkonian

[eikka]

Maybe experienced modders can chime in if this sort of thing was doable in Oblivion?

 

NPCs have three modes:

• 
   
  
• Mode #1: Normal
  
• Mode #2: Alerted, but no enemy sighted,
  
• Mode #3: Enemy sighted
   
  

In mode #2, you can still perform sneak attacks. However, your scenario would call for sneak attacks to work (sometimes?) from the back if the NPC is in mode #3. Essentially any attack from the back would have a chance of a sneak attack? Assuming this is doable, this could cause some unintended consequences. For example, shooting a dragon in the back as it does a strafing run over you could trigger a sneak attack -- which seems wrong, IMO. In addition, maneuvering behind NPCs during melee with a dagger could trigger a sneak attack as well, which also seems wrong.

 

I think the mod as I originally suggested would force improved tactics for stealthy players because the penalty if you are actually seen -- having to wait 30 minutes before being able to approach the NPC group again -- is high. Your suggestion would dilute this quite a bit as well as introduce possible game-breaking changes.

Years ago I requested a stealth improvement mod for Oblivion, which was realized beautifully by a modder DuggeDank in Proximity Based Sneak Penalties mod. It was a clever change that imposed sneak penalties to your toon based on the proximity and line of sight information from nearby NPCs. It really improved the stealth gameplay because it was nearly impossible to be invisible directly in front of an NPC. Mod increased the severity of penalties if you were approaching the NPC from the front. Also backstabbing was made more challenging, but it was way more rewarding due to increased sneak multipliers. High risk, high reward.

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=15025

 

I think it would be useful if NPCs were aware of collisions from any objects originating from your PC (also your touch). That way they could lose disposition towards the player and abusing them would become more difficult.

 

About bow stealth play, there should be bow sway movement to make it more challenging to land hits while stealthed. The mod for this behavior in Oblivion was made by TalkieToaster: Bow Sway mod.

http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=oblivionmods.detail&id=2464

Edited November 20, 2011 by eikka

[daventry]

This is great and i Vote for this idea :D

[Bearget]

NPCs have three modes:

• 
   
  
• Mode #1: Normal
  
• Mode #2: Alerted, but no enemy sighted,
  
• Mode #3: Enemy sighted
   
  

In mode #2, you can still perform sneak attacks. However, your scenario would call for sneak attacks to work (sometimes?) from the back if the NPC is in mode #3. Essentially any attack from the back would have a chance of a sneak attack? Assuming this is doable, this could cause some unintended consequences. For example, shooting a dragon in the back as it does a strafing run over you could trigger a sneak attack -- which seems wrong, IMO. In addition, maneuvering behind NPCs during melee with a dagger could trigger a sneak attack as well, which also seems wrong.

 

I think really what I'm interested in is making it so that Mode #2 lasts much longer (so enemies stay alert), but Mode #3 lasts less time (so if you leave their line-of-sight for a short while they will actually lose track of you). I'm not saying make the downshift immediate - it should obviously last long enough that ducking behind them does not give you a sneak attack. Maybe give it 15-20 seconds.

 

That said, I'd also want to improve the alertness as well as make it last longer - enemies are *sometimes* good about coming to look for you, or at least keeping their eyes in your general direction, but it needs to be an *every time* thing. If enemies were more proactive, I think it would not be game-breaking at all to use a 15-20 second downshift time, because in order to stay out of sight that long you'd have to either be REALLY well hidden or else sneak away from your position without being seen, while everyone's actively looking for you. Still challenging.

 

Except that, let's be honest, sneaking isn't challenging at all. So I think you'd have to accompany the idea with another mod making sneaking more difficult. It's truly ridiculous how close you can get to an enemy (from the front, no less!) with even a moderate sneak skill.

 

Lastly, if you're still bothered by the idea of making the shift from 3 to 2 that quick, it might be worth looking into a system more along the lines of Splinter Cell: if you can get a certain distance away from your last known location without getting spotted, then you're allowed to make another sneak attack. But that's probably way more difficult to do. I'm guessing that the "shorter mode 3, longer mode 2" idea above could be accomplished by just changing a few constant values, while this idea would involve some new scripts.

[ogridum]

Remove chickens/animals as witnesses of crimes.

 

Prevent enemies from being omniscient of your stolen goods in other towns/areas.

 

Proper AI reaction to when we invade their homes.

I should not be allowed to wander around the prison jail without even asking permission to the guards.

I should not be allowed to lockpick someones house, be seen inside and not get a proper reaction. The npc should know that the door was locked and I broke in. I should not be allowed inside. I commited a crime.

 

The AI should know when Im moving an object that is flagged with Steal while pressing E.

 

Not all enemies should throw their lifes away all the time. They should be more reasonable about their well being. They should be able to consider the threat other enemies and I/companion/summons represent to them.

 

"Wait a minute, that dude's armor and weapons are all glowy. Now he summoned a daedra" They shouldnt be that stupid.

[Unleashin]

This would defeat the purpose of being a sneak. Being a sneak allows you to hide appropriately that you are not caught by things happening around you. Perhaps i second all this for lower level sneaking. But after about lvl 50-60 sneak, then they dont find you as easy.

 

 

As for the last point, stay in the house long enough, normally about 4-5 warnings of saying get out, they call the guards, and the guards burst in and kill you. Had it happen to be once. lol

But i think some of this defeats the purpose of having sneak as a skill, so lower level sneaks, this should effect.

[PapaStalin]

Maybe experienced modders can chime in if this sort of thing was doable in Oblivion?

 

NPCs have three modes:

 

[*]Mode #1: Normal

[*]Mode #2: Alerted, but no enemy sighted,

[*]Mode #3: Enemy sighted

 

guys, these "modes" already exist in vanilla Skyrim. In fact detection system currently in place is very good. Much better than anything we saw in morrowind and oblivion. What is lacking is the reaction system. And i totally agree, we need a realistic or common sense reaction to being shot with an arrow, or seeing dead commarade.

 

The detection system already has much more modes than these 3, as can be seen by the eye opening and closing dynamically. From just a minor disturbance, eye just barely opened, to a major alert of eye being almost fully opened.

 

You can backstab an opponent in any of these modes, until you become fully "detected", doesnt matter how alert npcs are, they can still receive sneak attacks. But, its a lot harder to shoot a moving alerted target, as it should be.

 

So in my opinion, solution to this problem should be explored in the reaction part of the equation. The detection system is really good. Now that doesnt mean you have to be seen at xy meters away, or whatever, those are the details that can be ironed out as part of balancing, but the overall system is solid.

 

Bump for the OP, alert status after being attacked MUST remain active for a long time (enough to make hit&run exploits inefficient). Any alerts before an attack can pass relatively quickly (a guard hears something, ok it was just his imagination). But once someone gets attacked, or patrol discovers a dead body, its full alert for anyone in the vicinity