Did you kill Paarthurnax?

[BrettM]

It is very hard for me to see the logic that Delphine and Esbern are following. The Nords at the time of the Dragon War -- the victims who actually suffered because of Paarthurnax's actions as Alduin's lieutenant -- did not demand his death in the name of justice. Nor did any of the generations of Nords that followed during the centuries between the end of the Dragon War and the founding of the Graybeards. In fact, men and dragons lived at relative peace during those centuries, and the Nords did not set out to exterminate the dragon race, though it would certainly be understandable if they had given their history.

 

If the victims themselves did not demand the death of their persecutor, who in the heck are Delphine and Esbern to come along and demand it 3,000 years after the fact? Those two aren't even Nords, they're Imperials! The atrocities weren't even committed against their ancestors.

 

What they are doing is carrying out a genocidal pogrom started by non-humans from another continent for unknown reasons thousands of years ago. For all we know, the Tsaesci in modern Akavir don't even care about dragons in Tamriel any more, but there go Delphine and Esbern acting as puppets for Akaviri who are long, long dead. It makes no sense.

 

The hardest thing to understand about their fanatical devotion to the mission of those dead Akaviri is where it came from. When they joined the Blades, it could not have been because they had a burning desire to destroy dragons. Neither of them could have had any reasonable expectation of ever seeing a dragon during their lives, so their reasons for joining must have been something other than a fanatical hatred of dragons. In fact, the same could be said for everyone who ever joined the Blades since the days of Tiber Septim: dragonslaying formed no possible part of their motive for becoming Blades. Yet the minute dragons show up, suddenly D&E are all afire to wipe them out. Is their oath based on some kind of Akaviri mind-control magic that can turn non-fanatics into fanatics at the drop of a hat?

 

Why can't they see that no one else in Tamriel is demanding the extermination of the dragons, nor have they ever, and that there is something wrong with following an alien imperative to do this? I am very disappointed that even Esbern, the intellectual of the pair, doesn't think to ask himself these questions. Something is very wrong here and I have to wonder if the Akaviri reasons for the dragon genocide are somehow not in the best interests of Tamriel. What was the motive of the Akaviri in seeking a dragonborn in the first place and why should we believe in their benevolence?

[CaptainRC]

It is very hard for me to see the logic that Delphine and Esbern are following. The Nords at the time of the Dragon War -- the victims who actually suffered because of Paarthurnax's actions as Alduin's lieutenant -- did not demand his death in the name of justice. Nor did any of the generations of Nords that followed during the centuries between the end of the Dragon War and the founding of the Graybeards. In fact, men and dragons lived at relative peace during those centuries, and the Nords did not set out to exterminate the dragon race, though it would certainly be understandable if they had given their history.

 

If the victims themselves did not demand the death of their persecutor, who in the heck are Delphine and Esbern to come along and demand it 3,000 years after the fact? Those two aren't even Nords, they're Imperials! The atrocities weren't even committed against their ancestors.

 

What they are doing is carrying out a genocidal pogrom started by non-humans from another continent for unknown reasons thousands of years ago. For all we know, the Tsaesci in modern Akavir don't even care about dragons in Tamriel any more, but there go Delphine and Esbern acting as puppets for Akaviri who are long, long dead. It makes no sense.

 

The hardest thing to understand about their fanatical devotion to the mission of those dead Akaviri is where it came from. When they joined the Blades, it could not have been because they had a burning desire to destroy dragons. Neither of them could have had any reasonable expectation of ever seeing a dragon during their lives, so their reasons for joining must have been something other than a fanatical hatred of dragons. In fact, the same could be said for everyone who ever joined the Blades since the days of Tiber Septim: dragonslaying formed no possible part of their motive for becoming Blades. Yet the minute dragons show up, suddenly D&E are all afire to wipe them out. Is their oath based on some kind of Akaviri mind-control magic that can turn non-fanatics into fanatics at the drop of a hat?

 

Why can't they see that no one else in Tamriel is demanding the extermination of the dragons, nor have they ever, and that there is something wrong with following an alien imperative to do this? I am very disappointed that even Esbern, the intellectual of the pair, doesn't think to ask himself these questions. Something is very wrong here and I have to wonder if the Akaviri reasons for the dragon genocide are somehow not in the best interests of Tamriel. What was the motive of the Akaviri in seeking a dragonborn in the first place and why should we believe in their benevolence?

 

Actually, Esbern is a Nord, and Delphine is a Breton. However, what urked me about the whole thing was that when Delphine tells me that their oaths as Blades forbids them to help the Dragonborn after telling me earlier that they are supposed to serve the Dragonborn. How convienent. Ignore one oath to honor the other... one long since rendered obsolete until recently. But then, you have to rememeber that Delphine is a manipulator. However I also noticed that when you tell Arngier that you are not the Blades' puppet, he tells you that they CLAIM to serve the Dragonborn, but never have. Makes you wonder about the Blades' real motives both now and in the past. Ever wonder why in the beginning of Oblivion, the Blades left a single escped prisoner to guard Emperor Uriel Septim while they fought the Mythic Dawn assassins just before he died? Just something to think about.

Edited May 30, 2012 by CaptainRC

[landy8]

...Ever wonder why in the beginning of Oblivion, the Blades left a single escped prisoner to guard Emperor Uriel Septim while they fought the Mythic Dawn assassins just before he died? Just something to think about.

 

And that Baurus guy takes that sword from you sending you to some far away city. And that Jauffre sends you to Kvatch to find the last Septim alone! And Baurus sends you to the Mythic Dawn main base alone! Etc. etc. etc.

 

Even in Oblivion I've got suspicions about Blades' motives. Well, even in Morrowind, when your character needs information and support more than ever before, that Cosades guy leaves you with that "follow the prophecies" advice! And even tells something like "forget about the Empire, think locally"! Grand Spymaster of the Blades, Emperor's spies and guards!

 

I think the Blades like any other secret organization sometimes conveniently forget about their role and try to manipulate the ones they were supposed to serve.

 

Added: Don't know how old Emperor Uriel managed to control them, but I've devised my own way of reminding them who I am. Fus Ro Dah is not the only good Thu'um, there are others as well. Yol Toor Shul, for example, or Iiz Slen Nus. I hope someone will make a mod with a shout that removes the "essential" status from the target.

Edited May 31, 2012 by landy8

[Skaroli]

"The Blades are a bunch on jerks"

-a wise man.

[imperistan]

...Ever wonder why in the beginning of Oblivion, the Blades left a single escped prisoner to guard Emperor Uriel Septim while they fought the Mythic Dawn assassins just before he died? Just something to think about.

 

And that Baurus guy takes that sword from you sending you to some far away city. And that Jauffre sends you to Kvatch to find the last Septim alone! And Baurus sends you to the Mythic Dawn main base alone! Etc. etc. etc.

 

Even in Oblivion I've got suspicions about Blades' motives. Well, even in Morrowind, when your character needs information and support more than ever before, that Cosades guy leaves you with that "follow the prophecies" advice! And even tells something like "forget about the Empire, think locally"! Grand Spymaster of the Blades, Emperor's spies and guards!

 

I think the Blades like any other secret organization sometimes conveniently forget about their role and try to manipulate the ones they were supposed to serve.

 

Added: Don't know how old Emperor Uriel managed to control them, but I've devised my own way of reminding them who I am. Fus Ro Dah is not the only good Thu'um, there are others as well. Yol Toor Shul, for example, or Iiz Slen Nus. I hope someone will make a mod with a shout that removes the "essential" status from the target.

 

Gameplay.

[Dovahkiin069]

The first time i look in the eyes of my great friend Paarthurnax, i said ´´HE is my best friend´´ then when Delphine said to

kill him i look to her and say: F*** you :down: .

They could create a mod to kill Delphine because i decide to dont kill Paarthurnax.

I HATE THE BLADES! :verymad:

[Joukei]

I think the debatable two contradictory questions that are implied regarding the Blades and Paarthurnax's death is; "Should justice remove her blindfold and let past an individual who's "committed atrocities" (as stated by Esbern) because they've changed from the person they were?" or "Justice is blind; those who have committed such acts must be put to justice, regardless of their present self".

 

This is a highly debatable topic today, especially regarding Nazi war criminals. If you think about it, Present day Nazi war criminals that took part in the holocaust can be preaching peace, love and understanding today. being totally different people from whom they once were. However, because of this, should we ignore what they've done in their past time and not put them to proper trial? The two situations are almost identical, in two different contexts.

 

Note: i'm talking strictly individuals only here, not feuds between people- or dragons for that matter. An individuals actions don't reflect on its people. So, a mass extermination of Germans because of Hitler as a counter argument is completely off shooting the point, as it's irrelevant.

 

-> At first i let Paarthurnax live because i was swayed by his words and wisdom.

-> The second time, i killed him mercilessly to avenge the countless lives that he took- which in sum, probably doesn't morally accumulate to his worth.

 

I take games way to seriously >.> Lol

[Kraeten]

Nope, I didn't kill Paarthurnax. Didn't see anything approaching a sensible or moral reason why I should. Pity I'm not able to tip off the Thalmor about their location. I'd be happy to let them finish the job of eradicating the Blades. :devil:

[BrettM]

I think the debatable two contradictory questions that are implied regarding the Blades and Paarthurnax's death is; "Should justice remove her blindfold and let past an individual who's "committed atrocities" (as stated by Esbern) because they've changed from the person they were?" or "Justice is blind; those who have committed such acts must be put to justice, regardless of their present self".

It depends on your definition of justice. To me, true justice has to weigh the good as well as the bad. A justice system that does not allow testimony as to a person's good character and acts before pronouncing sentence hardly seems like a justice system at all. Whether or not a person is remorseful should be considered in determining the severity of their sentence.

 

What about the concept of mercy? Shouldn't that be part of justice as well? And what about atonement? Has Paarthurnax already repaid his debt to society, or will he repay it better by being left alive to continue his good works? Nobody benefits from his death, but many may benefit from his continued life. If the purpose of justice isn't to improve the welfare of society, then it's nothing more than vengeance.

 

You mention Nazi war criminals who reformed after the war and began doing good. But that isn't the case here. What would you do with a Nazi who switched sides during the war because he realized his moral error? Would you let him help and then afterwards tell him thanks as you led him to the gallows? Delphine and Esbern try to suggest that maybe Paarth switched sides to save his own skin, but that is ridiculous on the face of it. The dragons were winning easily until he switched sides and taught mortals to Shout, and would probably still have won if Felldir hadn't had an Elder Scroll in reserve. Paarthurnax put himself in more danger by switching sides than he would have by sticking with Alduin.

 

Furthermore, true justice must be based on specific charges and evidence proving the accused guilty of those charges. All I hear is a vague complaint of unspecified atrocities. What atrocities? And where is the evidence that specifically ties Paarthurnax to one or more of those atrocities? Is it just to condemn someone to death based on legends recorded by Akaviri foreigners thousands of years after the events took place?

 

It would make far more sense to demand the death of Odahviing, who was Alduin's chief lieutenant and doubtless responsible for plenty of atrocities while carrying out Alduin's orders. He shows no particular remorse or desire to atone, and shows nothing but distaste for the Way of the Voice. He only bends to your will because you've proven yourself stronger than Alduin. He makes it clear that he'd like to eat a few souls in Sovngarde himself except that Alduin doesn't allow other dov to have that priviledge. Odahviing is far more a bad guy than Paarthurnax. (And yet, he's kind of a lovable rascal, and I doubt I could bring myself to kill Odie, either. Unless he crosses me. :))

 

Delphine and Esbern advocate the extermination of an entire sapient species. Paarthurnax does not. Who are the real criminals here? Why would anyone even listen to accusations of atrocities coming out of the mouths of a couple of genocidal maniacs?

[Joukei]

I think the debatable two contradictory questions that are implied regarding the Blades and Paarthurnax's death is; "Should justice remove her blindfold and let past an individual who's "committed atrocities" (as stated by Esbern) because they've changed from the person they were?" or "Justice is blind; those who have committed such acts must be put to justice, regardless of their present self".

It depends on your definition of justice. To me, true justice has to weigh the good as well as the bad. A justice system that does not allow testimony as to a person's good character and acts before pronouncing sentence hardly seems like a justice system at all. Whether or not a person is remorseful should be considered in determining the severity of their sentence.

 

It would make far more sense to demand the death of Odahviing, who was Alduin's chief lieutenant and doubtless responsible for plenty of atrocities while carrying out Alduin's orders. He shows no particular remorse or desire to atone, and shows nothing but distaste for the Way of the Voice. He only bends to your will because you've proven yourself stronger than Alduin. He makes it clear that he'd like to eat a few souls in Sovngarde himself except that Alduin doesn't allow other dov to have that priviledge. Odahviing is far more a bad guy than Paarthurnax. (And yet, he's kind of a lovable rascal, and I doubt I could bring myself to kill Odie, either. Unless he crosses me. :))

 

 

I hope this doesn't turn into a polemic.

Great response though- it has me in pensive thought again :sleep: . It's a strong enough argument to cause me to oscillate between my choices :o

To kill Paarthurnax (Alduin's old second in command, who's most likely responsible for thousands of deaths as scribed on Alduin's Wall), or to let Paarthurnax live (As he's shown wanting for atonement, after he's caused the atrocities).

 

Regarding Odaviing though, his situation almost correlates to that of Paarthurnax's. should our judgement be this spiteful? Considering Paarthurnax's old hierarchy among the dragons; hypothetically, Paarthurnax must have been worse. Ode' can easily find motive for atonement after he's caused further atrocities. Who do we judge then? Should we kill the Dovah who are on a murderous onslaught and let live the ones that weren't caught because an existential event caused them to sway their choices?

 

It's almost the same as an individual whom is part of a group to kill a persons family, then turning around and saying "I'm different now! Look, i'll help you kill the rest of my old group members!". In my opinion, it "doesn't make him better, it makes him worse." (Dalphine)