Loot Scaling - Horrible Design

[sarnz]

IMO Diablo 2 CLASSIC had one of the best item systems in any game... you could find unique items, which were powerful. But randomly generated rares could have better stats for sure. Diablo 2 had level scaling in terms of playing the game 3 different times on 3 different difficulties.

 

I don't really like the scaling for the fact that bandits have used their shitty items all their lives until you come along and as you level up then are outfitted with sick gear. But I don't see how else to do it if you're not going to really designate level zones for the game.. Or create more enemies. A lot more enemies.

 

I like a 'leveled' system, as it's closer to real life as well.. you don't just decide to run one day and join the olympics. Lot's of training and then you can enter other areas. Would make sense to have certain more powerful armors for example have a heavy armor skill requirement. After all, if it's big and freakin heavy then it would obviously need a lot of strength built up to wear it in a role playing sense.

[saintjimmyz]

The rpg element is almost dead in the games current incarnation anyway. Id much prefer to go back to a Morrowind style setup, as Ive said. And Morrowind is a good example of how the game should work. You struggle against bandits and basic wild animals at level one, but half a dozen levels into the game (depending on which skills you focus on first) and basic bandits and mobs are fairly easily to kill. However, atronauchs and other mid to high level creatures are still reasonably beyond your reach, unless its a 1 on 1 and you burn a few dozen potions. As is to be expected from a level 5-10 character. Unlike now, when at level 5 to 10, you can kill almost anything put in front of you, which is counter logic. Fast forward 15 levels. Bandits are very easy, so are wild animals, atronauchs and other mid level mobs and npcs are killable - but can kill you if you are outnumbered - but high end creatures and npcs will still kill you. As it right and proper. Once you get to level 45-50, you can then kill anything, as is right for a character of that level. That level basically means you are on a par with minor gods and the most powerful creatures and npcs in the world. So it only makes sense that npcs are not almost your equal when you get to that level. In skyrim and oblivion you can walk around and kill anything you want, clear every dungeon - although its still fairly tough - regardless of what level you are. Thus defeating the point of levelling. Thats what makes the game boring, doing exactly the same battle over and over again from level 1 to level 50.

[Trey5511]

The rpg element is almost dead in the games current incarnation anyway. Id much prefer to go back to a Morrowind style setup, as Ive said. And Morrowind is a good example of how the game should work. You struggle against bandits and basic wild animals at level one, but half a dozen levels into the game (depending on which skills you focus on first) and basic bandits and mobs are fairly easily to kill. However, atronauchs and other mid to high level creatures are still reasonably beyond your reach, unless its a 1 on 1 and you burn a few dozen potions. As is to be expected from a level 5-10 character. Unlike now, when at level 5 to 10, you can kill almost anything put in front of you, which is counter logic. Fast forward 15 levels. Bandits are very easy, so are wild animals, atronauchs and other mid level mobs and npcs are killable - but can kill you if you are outnumbered - but high end creatures and npcs will still kill you. As it right and proper. Once you get to level 45-50, you can then kill anything, as is right for a character of that level. That level basically means you are on a par with minor gods and the most powerful creatures and npcs in the world. So it only makes sense that npcs are not almost your equal when you get to that level. In skyrim and oblivion you can walk around and kill anything you want, clear every dungeon - although its still fairly tough - regardless of what level you are. Thus defeating the point of levelling. Thats what makes the game boring, doing exactly the same battle over and over again from level 1 to level 50.

 

Which worked great in a story-driven, much more rich game than skyrim.

 

Skyrim doesn't have the kind of story to keep people interested as they become a demi-god, and every fight becomes the same slaughter for them at high levels.

 

 

The idea behind level scaling is that it isn't the same fight(ie. you facerolling over stuff as you become god-like, which happens very rapidly in every game in the series). You level up, you get new tools and new toys to fight with, new ways to handle fights that are still able to be interesting, same with the enemies.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Trey5511

[saintjimmyz]

I can see your point, but while you get new tools and new toys to fight with, so does everyone else. Its like being a race car driver, every time you get better equipment to give you an advantage, so does everyone else, rendering equipment advances ultimately futile. However I do agree that Skyrim needs the attention to detail given to Morrowind, even though Skyrim is head and shoulders above everything else in this genre, like Oblivion it is far inferior to Morrowind, Daggerfall and Id presume to Arena (although Ive never touched Arena myself). The only real way to tell if the Morrowind model in terms of levelling would work with Skyrim is for someone to go to the vast trouble of redoing the entire game in the contruction set to 'unlevel' the game, and to try it out...

[sadboyz]

Dynamically scaled loot and enemies is an easy cost-saving measure for bethesda: the quest designers just write the quests without having to worry about how and in what order the player chooses to progress, because everything will be "just right" when the player gets there.

 

On the contrary, it's far more difficult to properly design the open game world without level scaling. It would also likely require more enemies, more quests, and perhaps even a bigger map, all of which means more man hours of work. No need to do more work for nothing when you know some modding guy will do it for you for free.

[Stormcrown]

You keep the stats, its the enchantments scale.

[BGatot]

I too had a complain about this that I posted in the spoiler section. I generally agree with why they feel the need to use this system, they don't want you to came across super-powerful weapon at low level that breaks all game balancing to hell. But I think they might've gone a bit too far. I went through a dungeon and fight a legendary figure, only to get a sword that had a full 10 less damage than my current sword, which I got pretty early in the game (the weapon that was given when you get accepted as Companion). A legendary-type weapon should be more impressive than that!

[Fatalmasterpiece]

What would be the better system?

 

Not your hypothesis, but what is in fact a better looting system? I'm interested enough to know what some people believe is better.

 

Morrowinds system was fine, yes you could get the really powerful stuff early but it was guarded by very high level mobs meaning if you got it you had certainly earned it.

 

This

 

Epic loot should be guarded by epic, non leveled challenge. I hate feeling like I'm in a theme park tailored just for my character with the illusion of danger, but I know they won't throw anything at me I can't handle.

[vertex23]

Not your hypothesis, but what is in fact a better looting system? I'm interested enough to know what some people believe is better.

 

I think one of the more common oblivion mods had a better solution. Let the items level with you.

 

The idea of a leveled quest reward makes plenty of sense. the issue is that if you get a "legendary" weapon at level 5, that is appropriate for level 5, it won't be appropriate for level 25, and your "legendary" weapon is just vendor trash suddenly. But if you get a weapon at level 5 that would be appropriate for level 25, then its OP for 20 levels. So leveled rewards makes sense. So, take it a step further, make them level with you. As soon as you hit level 10, you get a new version thats more appropriate strength for level 5 instead of level 10. Same at 15, 20, or whatever the level increments, so your legendary rewards remain legendary, but not overpowered.

 

Items level with you? Why change that Iron Dagger and Hide armour, then?

[Raashy]

The biggest problem with leveling loot in a game like this is that it takes away the carrot on the stick. If I'm gonna be holding the same sword from level 10 to 80+ its going to get old pretty quick

Yes and no.

 

The biggest problem with leveled items is that the level locks itself at whatever level you get them. The stats stay that way forever, regardless of your own level. Suppose it did level with you though - what are the guarantees that the base stats would be far better than, say Daedric weapons. None whatsoever. There will always be a better option at the same level, regardless of whether or not the item leveled with you.

 

A way to fix the issue about waiting till higher level to get a leveled item: have the leveled item level up with you (stats wise) ... and then STOP leveling once it reaches the best version. For instance, you get the Nightingale armour at level 1 (hypothetically), and once you reach level 32, the stats are locked at the best version and doesn't change when you reach 50 or 81, or whatever level. This ensures that items that do level with you will be better than the leveled item, comparing base stats only, although with the same perks and upgrades, it'll probably still be worse than the best items available.

 

The point being, there's always something better available, and for a game that claims to level with you, having leveled items is actually a contradiction. It penalizes players who don't wait till the level needed for the best version of the item. The fix above should rectify it though, giving people the best of each leveled item once they reach the required level, while at the same time, not leveling beyond that to make them better or equivalent to items that actually do level with you.