Skyrim isn't dumbed down. Purists are.

[PavelkCZ]

What? Magic system dumbed down to FPS level?

 

How? That makes just about as much sense as MW2 getting 10/10 for audio and Bf3 getting 9.5/10

 

The magic is deeper if anything...oh wait...I understand. It's not like morrowind so it's dumbed down. It's like battlefield 2.5 purists all over again.

 

Ah, I see. OK, let it be.

You asked a question, I answered it.

It seems that you do not understand the basic ideas behind magic in RPG games and especially in TES games. So, further discussion about this topic will be like a dialog with the deaf.

Besides this, I have better things to do than feed a troll. Have a nice day.

[domanz]

First, I can't believe that someone could feel like the magic system was dumbed down. To fps level. Wha? Destruction was always about shooting stuff, especially in oblivion, now you can actually create elemental walls or spheres around you, put runes on the floor... you have more options for the destruction school. But I agree that many others schools have been robbed of their former glory. Alteration especially. Water walking? M-mh. Waterbreathing? Na-ah, potions. Levitating? No, use the console you funny person. Elemental shields? Gone. Conjuration lost armor spells and the variety of summons in general. Oh, and no more mystery school. Mark and recall was very, very useful. And I could continue about what I'd miss if I thought about it.

 

Yes, they definitely narrowed the game down. But they did not dumb it down. You get something for everything you lose. Dragon fights. Usable siege weapons. Perks. More focus on the remaining talents/schools. Way better and more fluid gameplay. And so on. Shouts? Extreme fun to use.

 

And I don't blame Bethesda for narrowing stuff down. They considered feedback, which was loud shouts for better gameplay. We wanted no more stupid button mashing, no more quick strike or strong strike, no more uninteresting magic system. And we got it. But there's only so much time. They still had to create a big world and make it come alive. We are lucky we can add much in the means of mods, but it would have been absolutely impossible for them to include everything thousands of fans can add over the years. For the scale of the elder scrolls game, I think Bethesda does a good job. Producers of other games don't have to create a world hundreds of square kilometers in size, so they can focus on other things.

 

All that said, to me Skyrim is the best elder scrolls release yet, after Morrowind, and I am thrilled just thinking about the future, when talented modders will enrich this game with even better gameplay, graphics, sounds and content.

Edited November 27, 2011 by domanz

[Miraboreasu]

Morrowind > Skyrim > Oblivion

 

Skyrim is better than oblivion in almost every way. It does NOT compare to the depth and length that Morrowind had, nor even the same feel. It is, however a very good game, and a very well made game. It has many things that Morrowind did not, and most of those things are quite enjoyable, and welcome to me. Oblivion, on the other hand, is almost dead to me now. Were it not for all the massive emphasis on lore behind the Daedra and Oblivion, I'd probably just forget it now. Well, that and the phenomenally good DB questline.

[DarkGenius]

Isn't that the way levitation worked before Oblivion as a timed duration spell. You rose up and hovered, movement was slow and limited and when time ran out if you weren't careful you fell to your death. Been so long since I played Morrowind or Daggerfall but that is the way I remember it. Levitation and telekinesis got a lot of loot. Long for the days when mages ruled the land. Now mages have become poor reflections of their former glory. Can't craft a proper spell anymore let alone hover above a battle field throwing lightning and fireballs at the hapless foot bound. Wasn't easy though, hovering in the air you become an easy target for every bowman on the block.

 

 

You're not a mage as I do. Mages need an focus, some "time" for them to ready their spells, the first thing one powerful mage should do is conjure his minions to give him enough time to cast his Arcane Armor, conjure a bound weapon or ready a Bolt. As for hovering in combat, it would make it pretty easy for mages to avoid Melee Attackers, we have runes though, and "two hands" it is pretty suggested to use Glass Armor and Enchant it with Magicka Regen, better for Sorcerer or Battlemage. But I agree with you, sometimes it is hard to keep focus. Mages aren't poor reflections, they never have been.

You still powerful for combat

 

 

Telekinesis (the real one)

Bound Armor

Spellcrafting (Stupid Move, Bethesda.)

Silence (how to survive without it?)

Better Alchemy (Why do it have to be "CORRECT" only, all the time? we should be able to experiment)

More Quests (Lacking for real)

 

There is Bug with "Command Daedra" they don't seem to properly work at some times, you have to cast 1 or 3 times to work.

One thing I have been expecting of conjuration in Skyrim would have the ability to summon a mount. Like a Spectral Horse, or Sabercat. Would have been awesome.

 

PS: I use Sincerely at the end, because I'm "Educated."

 

Sincerely,

 

DG.

Edited November 27, 2011 by DarkGenius

[Handofbane]

And I don't blame Bethesda for narrowing stuff down. They considered feedback, which was loud shouts for better gameplay. We wanted no more stupid button mashing, no more quick strike or strong strike, no more uninteresting magic system. And we got it. But there's only so much time. They still had to create a big world and make it come alive. We are lucky we can add much in the means of mods, but it would have been absolutely impossible for them to include everything thousands of fans can add over the years. For the scale of the elder scrolls game, I think Bethesda does a good job. Producers of other games don't have to create a world hundreds of square kilometers in size, so they can focus on other things.

 

All that said, to me Skyrim is the best elder scrolls release yet, after Morrowind, and I am thrilled just thinking about the future, when talented modders will enrich this game with even better gameplay, graphics, sounds and content.

I absolutely will blame Bethesda for that part, what on earth (or Tamriel) could have possibly made them interpret that concept as "let's take stuff out instead of adding more variety". Your statement about waiting for modders only adds to the baffling nature of it, as Bethesda could have taken one look at the Nexus (it's obvious they did for other ideas), and seen that the single file with the most endorsements, having almost 1000 more endorsements than even the Oblivion Mod Manager, is Midas Magic. Take a look at the stats there, almost 925,000 downloads (well over a quarter million unique user downloads), if that doesn't speak to them saying "hey, good idea here", then they have a serious disconnect from what their users are actually enjoying and like to see added to the game.

[Odai]

And I don't blame Bethesda for narrowing stuff down. They considered feedback, which was loud shouts for better gameplay. We wanted no more stupid button mashing, no more quick strike or strong strike, no more uninteresting magic system. And we got it. But there's only so much time. They still had to create a big world and make it come alive. We are lucky we can add much in the means of mods, but it would have been absolutely impossible for them to include everything thousands of fans can add over the years. For the scale of the elder scrolls game, I think Bethesda does a good job. Producers of other games don't have to create a world hundreds of square kilometers in size, so they can focus on other things.

 

All that said, to me Skyrim is the best elder scrolls release yet, after Morrowind, and I am thrilled just thinking about the future, when talented modders will enrich this game with even better gameplay, graphics, sounds and content.

I absolutely will blame Bethesda for that part, what on earth (or Tamriel) could have possibly made them interpret that concept as "let's take stuff out instead of adding more variety". Your statement about waiting for modders only adds to the baffling nature of it, as Bethesda could have taken one look at the Nexus (it's obvious they did for other ideas), and seen that the single file with the most endorsements, having almost 1000 more endorsements than even the Oblivion Mod Manager, is Midas Magic. Take a look at the stats there, almost 925,000 downloads (well over a quarter million unique user downloads), if that doesn't speak to them saying "hey, good idea here", then they have a serious disconnect from what their users are actually enjoying and like to see added to the game.

 

Dont forget about shouts,,, that is a type of magic aswell... Now with that said I dont like how dragons get some shouts that we dont, but that is another argument entirely.

[Shantih]

So no writing is better than actual lines.

Right... And you're saying I'm the one who is not seeing the point. :facepalm:

Thank you for proving my point.

 

Thanks for making mine.

 

Skyrim is definitely an improvement over Oblivion as far as writing and dialogues are concerned. Some may say it's subjective but no matter what, having actual dialogue lines instead of topics is an improvement -if only in the sense that it makes dialogues more immersive. You can at least pretend that your character is talking to NPCs.

 

It is subjective. And no matter how much you wish it to be otherwise, it's not. It's subjective. Based on our past discussions, I fear that you will once again fail to see the point, but....

 

Having full lines of dialogue for your character is not better writing, it's just a different technique. The idea of topics, is that you, the player, can freely imagine and roleplay the way you want to present the topic. You can imagine your character to use the words that suit your vision of your character. The downside of this technique is that there can be fairly large disconnect between what you imagine your character to say, and the way that the NPC's respond.

 

Skyrim went with a different technique. Here you have predefined lines for your character to choose from, and the response of the NPCs is more tightly connected to what your character actually says. The downside is of course that you lose some of the freedom to roleplay your character, and may feel that the game puts words into your character mouth.

 

And which one you personally prefer is just your subjective take on the matter and in no way proof one way or another about the quality of the writing involved.

 

 

On one side... topics allow for you to talk to anyone and pretend you are saying whatever to whoever.

 

Lines on the other hand provide a clear response to a clear statement which (as mentioned) remedies any disconnect from the players imagined statement to the NPCs predetermined response.

 

Neither is better than the other. A player could RP a person who only says "I wanna make a baby" then lines might not be best, but the topics would yield odd replies also. Lines add some level of realism to the NPCs by giving realistic and different conversations, allowing you to familiarize yourself with their unique personality. Topics make for cookie cutter NPCs who all have a pool of responses to draw from. You can RP all you want, but NPCs are the same. In the end it is personal preference as to which you would prefer. Every shop keeper says the same thing in the same voice, or you get unique personalities where your character is given one of a few options that fit a negative, positive or neutral response. Basically garnering the same response you would want to get from RP.

 

For the record I was referring to the actual quality of the writing.

 

-Topics read like entries in a list, in other word there is no writing involved.

 

-Actual lines read like a script and as such qualify as a true composition.

 

Writers had to put more effort in Skyrim because they had to come up with actual lines which means that they had to flesh things out more in Skyrim.

 

If we're not judging the quality of the writing on its literary merit then I don't see the point in arguing whether this is an improvement or not.

[DarkGenius]

They "Must" improve a lot of things, as well include Infamy/Fame

 

You can still slaughter an entire village, and they'll say, how can I serve you Dragonborn, OH THANK YOU, you're such a NICE PERSON, here's a knife, slice me, please.

there is some stuff that should've been there. It is impossible to roleplay without it. You saved the world, you're Dragonborn.

Like in Karthwasten, I've helped the entire village, and there's some that say: "Here is no place for you, stranger." What the NiceWord ?

 

Sincerely,

 

DG.

[Shantih]

They "Must" improve a lot of things, as well include Infamy/Fame

 

You can still slaughter an entire village, and they'll say, how can I serve you Dragonborn, OH THANK YOU, you're such a NICE PERSON, here's a knife, slice me, please.

there is some stuff that should've been there. It is impossible to roleplay without it. You saved the world, you're Dragonborn.

Like in Karthwasten, I've helped the entire village, and there's some that say: "Here is no place for you, stranger." What the NiceWord ?

 

Sincerely,

 

DG.

 

Slaughtering all the guards in Solitude doesn't seem to impress any of the "civilians" in the castle either.

 

Some of the comments work (I've seen NPCs taking into account some changes regarding my characters, whether status, clothing or condition) whereas others don't... The "stranger" thing is indeed annoying.

 

There is definitely room for improvement (which for the sake of clarity is not the same as saying that the game is "dumbed down").

[Goliath978]

@pavelkcz

If you had a good point to make you'd make it. Lol I've played rpg games as much as you have and understood magic as much as you have.

 

Now tell me why you think skyrim's magic is streamlined. Oh right...you won't...because you don't have a reason. you'll use the "I can't waste my time on you" card.

 

And I want to be as educated as DG so:

Sincerely,

Goliath978

I feel smarter already. I'm serious.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Goliath978