cmac Posted February 22, 2004 Author Share Posted February 22, 2004 I would think that any male raised by them would be apt to be homosexual. Homosexuality is not a trait attained through postnatal experiences; it is a gene malfunction determined before birth. Phenotype alterations have no effect on sexual orientation whatsoever. I'm not saying homosexuality is a "malfunction" as an insult; I mean only that it is a disorder- the body's primary function is to procreate its genes through heterosexual reproduction. Homosexual relations (obviously) cannot accomplish that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malchik Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 It may be simplistic to say what was intended in genetic make up. Homosexual activity is exeedingly common in situations where women are not present for considerable periods - prisons, all male schools, at sea etc. This does not mean those participating are homosexual, but implies the need to produce semen is a higher imperative than the need to procreate. While many may 'go it alone' the taboos seem to be less rigid in those situations. Can we really say what our society would be like if there were no such taboos? Certainly there have been occasions in history where bisexual activity was more the norm. However to stay on topic, why does any religious group have the ability to dictate SECULAR laws? How can the US claim to be free and democratic and at the same time implement a fundamentalist christian legislation? But lest I get into rant mode, I will withdraw from the debate. (Unless and until someone really winds me up.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valdir Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 I'm not here to debate (I HATE debating), I'm just here to throw in my opinion. Homosexuality is something you keep in the bedroom, and so is heterosexuality. No where else. Seeing two fat 30+ year old dudes holding hands in a public mall creeps me out, but seeing a guy and a girl holding hands isn't. Fact is, homosexual relationships are almost always about having sex. Within a year, a male homosexual will have had eight "partners", even if they are married. And almost ALL homosexual marriages end in divorce. I'm not saying that ALL homos (no offense, you all know what I mean) are like this, but its fact. Religion is a factor. No matter what you believe in (or DONT believe in), religion affects peoples decisions. Marriage has nothing to do with politics, therefore the "laws" of religion apply. Athiests can marry, so homos should too. I'm not saying I like the idea. In fact, I think it's one of the nastiest ideas humanity has created for itself. But you know what? What I think doesn't matter. Just because homos can marry, doesn't affect me, because I'm the one making choices for me. No ones going to force you to marry anyone. It's your choice, lets keep it that way. -val Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Thief Oriana Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Homosexuality is not a trait attained through postnatal experiences; it is a gene malfunction determined before birth. Phenotype alterations have no effect on sexual orientation whatsoever. That is a fact? you really can be "Born Gay"? As far as I've seen, people become like their parents, through imitating. They might not become homosexual, but they do become more like the charicteristics exhibited. But you know what? What I think doesn't matter. Just because homos can marry, doesn't affect me, because I'm the one making choices for me. No ones going to force you to marry anyone. It's your choice, lets keep it that way. Exactly. It isnt our choice; It's theirs. And, It is terrible that we try to force anyone to do (or not to do) anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malchik Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 I'm not here to debate (I HATE debating), I'm just here to throw in my opinion. Homosexuality is something you keep in the bedroom, and so is heterosexuality. No where else. Seeing two fat 30+ year old dudes holding hands in a public mall creeps me out, but seeing a guy and a girl holding hands isn't. Fact is, homosexual relationships are almost always about having sex. Within a year, a male homosexual will have had eight "partners", even if they are married. And almost ALL homosexual marriages end in divorce. I'm not saying that ALL homos (no offense, you all know what I mean) are like this, but its fact. Religion is a factor. No matter what you believe in (or DONT believe in), religion affects peoples decisions. Marriage has nothing to do with politics, therefore the "laws" of religion apply. Athiests can marry, so homos should too. I'm not saying I like the idea. In fact, I think it's one of the nastiest ideas humanity has created for itself. But you know what? What I think doesn't matter. Just because homos can marry, doesn't affect me, because I'm the one making choices for me. No ones going to force you to marry anyone. It's your choice, lets keep it that way. -val Why did I say I'd withdraw? Immediately you get this! It is not considered a good policy to throw a very strident opinion into a discussion and then say you refuse to debate it. For all I know you may be right about your stereotypes but you don't convince me because you have produced no evidence to support your statements. What percentage of homosexual marriages end in divorce? (Please quote the source of the information). What perecntage of hereosexual marriages end in divorce? Where does the statement that homosexuals have eight partners a year (even if they are not married) come from? Most heterosexual unmarried men I know would think it was a pretty lean time if they only managed eight relationships in a year. Those who are married are too discreet to say. Whether you hate to debate or not you cannot throw unsupported opinions around as though they were facts. I'm neutral. Produce some evidence. Convince me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darnoc Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Homosexuality is not a trait attained through postnatal experiences; it is a gene malfunction determined before birth. Phenotype alterations have no effect on sexual orientation whatsoever. I'm not saying homosexuality is a "malfunction" as an insult; I mean only that it is a disorder- the body's primary function is to procreate its genes through heterosexual reproduction. Homosexual relations (obviously) cannot accomplish that. Where did you get this information? From what I heard, there was never any prove at all that homosexuality is genetically determined. From what I heard, the existence of a "homosexuality-gen" was even disproven. I must look it up, but some years ago scientists in genetics announced that they found that there is no homosexuel gene. Homosexuality is only a result of postnatal experiences (environment you grow up, society, parents etc.). But if homosexuality is genetically determined or not, it doesn't matter at all. Every person can do with his/her life what he/she wants. In our society, every human being is free. As long as the freedom of another human being is not threatened. Only when this is the case, the freedom of a human being can be taken away. As long as a homosexual is not threatening the freedom or life of another human being, he/she can do what he/she wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valdir Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 The reason I don't support my facts is because I got them by word of mouth from my World Geography teacher while we were having this exact same discussion. EVERY one of his classes had the same hour and a half discussion on gay marriage. Since I don't have the class until Tuesday, I'll make sure and ask him about where he got his information, then I'll PM you or something. The reason I'm not going to search Google for it is because my family uses this computer and I'd be embarassed as hell if my dad found "gay marriage" in the searchbar ^_^ -val Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Just what ARE the negitive aspects of two men raising a family?What are the negitive aspects of two women raising a family? Simple: THERE ARE NONE. First you have to look at what type of people the couple are. If they are two butching manly men then any girl raised in their house hold, i would think, would be more apt to be tomboyish. If the two men are more on the sentimental side, like say the queer eyes, then I would think that any male raised by them would be apt to be homosexual. Your point? These are not bad qualites. Who says children have to fit the traditional male/female roles? And in any case, that's a matter for the person themself to decide, not for society. The only time society would be justified in enforcing laws based on personality results would be if there was clear harm demonstraded (ex: a murderer's children being more likely to commit violent crimes). Failure to follow obsolete male/female stereotypes is not even close to enough reason to interfere. Well any one care to list "negitive" traits that may be exibited by persons raised by same sex couples? Oh, and being "butterdumpster eithens boud for a life of sin and eventual damnantion" is not a negitive trait; it's a possable outcome as seen through the eyes of religiuse zelots. Again, there are none. But perhaps the better idea would be to list all the horrible negative effects of single parent families. Since the whole point is that the children would be denied the influence of one parent, and therefore become closer in personality to the other, a male/male family should produce the exact same result as a single father family. ========================================== I would think that any male raised by them would be apt to be homosexual. Homosexuality is not a trait attained through postnatal experiences; it is a gene malfunction determined before birth. Phenotype alterations have no effect on sexual orientation whatsoever. First, Nevermore, you're completely wrong. If homosexuality is determined by parents, where do they all come from? Few children are raised by homosexual parents, so that can't be the only cause. And perfectly "normal" families can, and do, produce homosexual children. Second, proof of this genetic cause? Who says someone can't choose to be homosexual for some reason? And in any case, personal choice or genetic cause, the majority still has zero right to say it's "wrong". I'm not saying homosexuality is a "malfunction" as an insult; I mean only that it is a disorder- the body's primary function is to procreate its genes through heterosexual reproduction. Homosexual relations (obviously) cannot accomplish that. Fine, by strict biology definitions it's a disorder. Thankfully we have moved beyond pure biology to the point that it is not the only factor. ================================================ However to stay on topic, why does any religious group have the ability to dictate SECULAR laws? How can the US claim to be free and democratic and at the same time implement a fundamentalist christian legislation? Because far too many people in our country are conservative christians, and care more about their religion's moral judgements than the laws. To them, there is no line between their religion's demands and what is right according to the laws. It's an unfortunate situation for those of us who aren't blinded by religion, but it's one that isn't going to change any time soon. ================================================ I'm not here to debate (I HATE debating), I'm just here to throw in my opinion. Homosexuality is something you keep in the bedroom, and so is heterosexuality. No where else. Seeing two fat 30+ year old dudes holding hands in a public mall creeps me out, but seeing a guy and a girl holding hands isn't. Your point? Be offended, the world doesn't care. Your opinion of someone's choices is irrelevant, and gives you no right to enforce it on them. Fact is, homosexual relationships are almost always about having sex. Within a year, a male homosexual will have had eight "partners", even if they are married. And almost ALL homosexual marriages end in divorce. I'm not saying that ALL homos (no offense, you all know what I mean) are like this, but its fact. Please, provide proof for your idiotic claims. One of my (female) friends has been with the same girl for just as long (if not longer) than average male/female relationships. And I hear similar stories from various people online. And second, if homosexual marriage is not legal, how can you provide statistics for it? Concession accepted, come back when you have legitimate facts. Religion is a factor. No matter what you believe in (or DONT believe in), religion affects peoples decisions. Marriage has nothing to do with politics, therefore the "laws" of religion apply. WRONG. Laws can be decided just fine without involving religion. The choice to base legal judgements on religion is just that, a choice. And marriage has a lot to do with politics/law. Do you conveniently ignore the legal benefits it provides? Athiests can marry, so homos should too. I'm not saying I like the idea. In fact, I think it's one of the nastiest ideas humanity has created for itself. And I think narrow-minded people like you are one of the nastiest things humanity has created. Fortunately both of these opinions are irrelevant to anyone but ourselves. ================================================== But if homosexuality is genetically determined or not, it doesn't matter at all. Every person can do with his/her life what he/she wants. In our society, every human being is free. As long as the freedom of another human being is not threatened. Only when this is the case, the freedom of a human being can be taken away. As long as a homosexual is not threatening the freedom or life of another human being, he/she can do what he/she wants. Ugh, for once I agree with you Darnoc. This is exactly my point, the government has exactly zero business enforcing moral judgements (no matter how strongly the majority feels about it) unless there is clear harm to another person. What consenting adults do is absolutely none of their business. ================================================== The reason I don't support my facts is because I got them by word of mouth from my World Geography teacher while we were having this exact same discussion. EVERY one of his classes had the same hour and a half discussion on gay marriage. THEN DON'T POST YOUR "FACTS" UNTIL YOU CONFIRM THEM. Since I don't have the class until Tuesday, I'll make sure and ask him about where he got his information, then I'll PM you or something. No, you'll post them here. Or you will post a public concession of your mistakes. Do not come back to this debate until you do one of these two things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmac Posted February 23, 2004 Author Share Posted February 23, 2004 Here is the basis for my statement. The site argues and defends both sides of the debate (gene cause (hormonal over/under production) or postnatal experience, but there is a link for a site relating to a homosexuality study in sheep, where scientists dissected the "gay" rams' brains and found that their hypothalamus was female-like in size. A leading scientist believes that abnormal prenatal hormonal exposure of these rams' brains may have caused them to develop in a sex-atypical manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevermore Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Simple: THERE ARE NONE. I wouldn't say that with such force untill there have been more same-sex couples raising children. Who knows, maybe the children would lack a male/female role modle so are more likely to have more sexual partners. Compensating a lack of a gender role modle does couse this to happen some times. As to wether or not premiscuity is a "bad" thing: I would say if it's too strng then it's not healthy for all partys involved what with all the STDs and such. Your point? These are not bad qualites. Who says children have to fit the traditional male/female roles? ? #1. The statment your revering to is not making a point, only listing examples.? #2. I never said these were bad qualities.? #3. Not me. a male/male family should produce the exact same result as a single father family. Wrong. The two males (in almost ALL cases) would have diffrent personalitys (however slight the diffrences are). Diffrent personality combonations create diffrent children. Having two parent's (regardless of sexes) personalitys floating around a household impresing them selves on the child with out a doubt make a diffrent child then just one of those personalitys. Saying otherwise is nieve (wich is polite for stupid.) First, Nevermore, you're completely wrong. If homosexuality is determined by parents, where do they all come from? Few children are raised by homosexual parents, so that can't be the only cause. And perfectly "normal" families can, and do, produce homosexual children. No, I don't think I am. Parent's sexualality does effect childrens sexualaity, though it is not the supreme desiding factor (I never said it was). I think you read my post wrong so I'll break it down a bit: I meaning methink meaning I belive but know I may be wrongany male this is self explanitoryraised brought up in the household of and influenced byby them "them" as in homosexualswould be apt would be more liklyto be homosexual. to be a homosexual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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