HighkingUlfricStormcloak Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 (edited) @ Kradus Calling my arguments baseless isnt really an argument either. We can go down the road of "Im right your wrong." All day and get nowhere. The Empire signed the WGC. Which allows the Thalmor to roam the Imperial provinces to prosecute the worshipers of Talos. It allows for them to be present at all Imperial meetings and events. They have headquarters in Solitude, they have Northwatch keep, the Embassy. All present in Imperial controlled Holds. The Thalmor have a say in all Imperial matters because the WGC allows for that. Yes I understand the COC, probably better than you do. The Emperor has the final say. And the Legions were assigned the task of rooting out rebellion in Skyrim which they know is there job. So, yes, when the Emperor dies they can still complete their task. But what about after? The Elder council doesnt want a war with the Dominion because they are in power and dont want to risk losing that power gained. So after they lose the Emperor they lose the only man who would lead them against the dominion. Tullius cannot make this choice himself. Ulfric wasnt Jarl when Torygg was elected. He was in Markarth. In prison. Ulfric respects tradition because he allows for the moot to take place instead of just taking the throne. He isnt going to allow the moot to decide whos going to be High anything without securing his own position because thats the smart thing to do politically. Why waste the time to wage a war then allow the leaders to elect someone else when you have the power to keep it from happening. So thats not Ulfric ignoring traditions, its Ulfric being smart. Edited March 4, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighkingUlfricStormcloak Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 (edited) The point of a Chain of Command is to solve problems at the lowest level within your own business. To allow for the upper levels to be freed up to make the bigger, more important decisions. Thats the point of a COC. To make it as effective as possible. Edited March 4, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraquar Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 No Empire in their right mind would agree to a treaty that would allow the enemy to come into their sovereign territory and torture/murder their civilians. If any Emperor (or High King for that matter) agreed to such a treaty, they deserve to have their head on a platter - by their own subjects hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighkingUlfricStormcloak Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 (edited) And its irrelevant that "They didnt do it until Ulfric threw a fit" the fact that it's allowed by the Emperor is whats wrong. Not only that they do it but that they are allowed to do it freely with no questions asked. Stormcloak Soldier: "So, why did you join the Stormcloaks?"Stormcloak Soldier: "My cousin disappeared one night. Some say the Thalmor grabbed him. Wasnt long before I found myself under Ulfric's banner." I havent heard any Legionnaire say "My cousin disappeared one night, some say Ulfric or the Stormcloaks grabbed him. Wasnt long before I found myself under Titus Mede II's banner." Edited March 4, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 (edited) @fraquar No Empire in their right mind would agree to a treaty that would allow the enemy to come into their sovereign territory and torture/murder their civilians. If any Emperor (or High King for that matter) agreed to such a treaty, they deserve to have their head on a platter - by their own subjects hand.Correct - TMII (Chamberlain) is in charge of it. @HighKing And its irrelevant that "They didnt do it until Ulfric threw a fit" the fact that it's allowed by the Emperor is whats wrong. Not only that they do it but that they are allowed to do it freely with no questions asked. Correct. In order for the Empire to survive the WGC must be nullified. Ulfric wasnt Jarl when Torygg was elected. He was in Markarth. In prison. Incorrect. Ulfric was present at Torygg's Moot. Now instead, you may be thinking of when "The Bear of Eeastmarch" passed away. Ulfric respects tradition because he allows for the moot to take place instead of just taking the throne. He isnt going to allow the moot to decide whos going to be High anything without securing his own position because thats the smart thing to do politically. Why waste the time to wage a war then allow the leaders to elect someone else when you have the power to keep it from happening. So thats not Ulfric ignoring traditions, its Ulfric being smart. Errr... hmmmm. This is a hard point to sell. Ulfric respects Nord culture more than tradition. There are some traditions Ulfric blatenly disregards. The bottom line is Ulfric wants the Empire and the Thalmor out of Skyrim at any and all costs.Any tradition or practice involving either of these two parties is "*detestable" in Ulfric's eyes. This does not make him right, it's just how he sees it. Edited March 4, 2013 by StormHammer81 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighkingUlfricStormcloak Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 The fact that it was ever put in place is exactly why the Empire doesnt deserve to live. They cant even secure Cyrodiil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 (edited) The fact that it was ever put in place is exactly why the Empire doesnt deserve to live. They cant even secure Cyrodiil. Subjective. In a sense, yes, however I would like to point out the WGC is not the norm. The problem is unless someone in the Empire does something about it, then it will become the norm. If the WGC becomes the norm, the Empire must die. However, this remains to be seen. I serve the Empire, not the Thalmor. Edited March 4, 2013 by StormHammer81 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayyyleb Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 The legions arent doing "their own thing" they are commanded by the Emperor. More so by Tullius who is commanded by the Emperor. Now TM II is dead. So where is the Imperial leadership now? Ulfric is allowing for Nord tradition to take place. Even if he knows he will be High King, he respects tradition. The next emperor? Just because TMII dies doesn't mean his entire family has to drop off the face of the earth for the sake of your argument. And you keep bring up "tradition" well...I hate to break it to you but "tradition" is little more than doing something a certain way because that's how it's always been done. Has nothing to do with it being the right thing to do or even sensible at all. A system of rule in which any random schmuck can challenge the king to single combat for rule of the kingdom is a downright crap system whether it's "tradition" or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 @Kayyyleb The next emperor? Just because TMII dies doesn't mean his entire family has to drop off the face of the earth for the sake of your argument. Correct. There will be another Emperor/potentate. Lore supports this. Hopefully, it will be the Dragonborn, although at present this is speculation. Though it seems likely, line of Talos and all. Only someone from Talos's line or for that matter, the Septim's line could shout naturally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraquar Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 The legions arent doing "their own thing" they are commanded by the Emperor. More so by Tullius who is commanded by the Emperor. Now TM II is dead. So where is the Imperial leadership now? Ulfric is allowing for Nord tradition to take place. Even if he knows he will be High King, he respects tradition. The next emperor? Just because TMII dies doesn't mean his entire family has to drop off the face of the earth for the sake of your argument. And you keep bring up "tradition" well...I hate to break it to you but "tradition" is little more than doing something a certain way because that's how it's always been done. Has nothing to do with it being the right thing to do or even sensible at all. A system of rule in which any random schmuck can challenge the king to single combat for rule of the kingdom is a downright crap system whether it's "tradition" or not.In any feudal lands, this is exactly what happens. If you can't defend yourself, how can anyone expect you to lead from the front? From bandit leaders, to Orc chieftans, to Skyrim High Kings - you periodically are going to be challenged. You either defend yourself or step aside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts