Imperial VS Stormcloak

[TheLoreSeeker]

"If they were to get into the pass the Nords could blockade the pass with just a few soldiers, like Thermopylae, aka the Spartan 300."

The tactics used at Thermopylae are USELESS against the Altmer.

Spartan phalanx tactics don't work against fireballs....and the Nords are famous for their distaste in magic, so there will be NO wards.

Edit: You're post just beat mine out.

Truthfully, they probably survived the Battle of the Red Ring due to Imperial and Breton Battlemages working alongside them.

Edited April 2, 2013 by TheLoreSeeker

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

"If they were to get into the pass the Nords could blockade the pass with just a few soldiers, like Thermopylae, aka the Spartan 300."

 

The tactics used at Thermopylae are USELESS against the Altmer.

 

Spartan phalanx tactics don't work against fireballs....and the Nords are famous for their distaste in magic, so there will be NO wards.

 

Edit: You're post just beat mine out.

 

Truthfully, they probably survived the Battle of the Red Ring due to Imperial and Breton Battlemages working alongside them.

 

 

The "Heroic Nord Legionnaires " were in Cheydinhal, under the command of General Jonna, who's force consisted mainly of Nord legions from Skyrim, in the Nibenay Valley, the Emperor marched the main body of the Legions south from Bruma, while General Decianus came from the west with his Redguard and Cyrodiilic legions. The Nords were alone in the Nibenay until they reached the Imperial City, where they met up with the other forces (Bretons, Imperials, Redguards)

 

They also had their "Unbreakable" Shield Wall at the Imperial city, thus keeping the AD's forces inside the City. So this gives insight into Nordic capability against the magic of the elves in combat. And in the lore of TES the Nords have battled mer throughout history, so this also tells us they know how to fight against magic.

 

A number of those Nord legionnairres are now Stormcloaks, so they are vets of the Great War and can share their knowledge of this tactic to their brothers and sisters - aka Stormcloaks.

Edited April 2, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

By the way, Does anyone know who the "right" side is to side with in the quest "In my time of need." - both claim the other works for the Thalmor, but I dont know who to believe.

[frakle]

By the way, Does anyone know who the "right" side is to side with in the quest "In my time of need." - both claim the other works for the Thalmor, but I dont know who to believe.

The game gives no substantial evidence as to who's working for who. Just side with whomever you think is right, however a tip to lessen the amount of Alik'r you have to fight, hand the girl into the bounty hunters, but when you get to the drop off point (whiterun stables), kill the bounty hunters. You'll get the same reward and only have to fight a couple of Alik'r instead of around 5 of them.

[sisterof]

By the way, Does anyone know who the "right" side is to side with in the quest "In my time of need." - both claim the other works for the Thalmor, but I dont know who to believe.

I think the woman is lying. First, because she tried to seduce me (and almost succeeded, I confess), second because she says she was chased out of Hammerfell by the Thalmor and hello? Thalmor having power in Hammerfell?, third because if she was indeed being chased by the Thalmor, we'd have their agents after her, not some mercenaries from a province that is not under their power.

 

I could be wrong and it could be a totally ambiguous quest, though. That was just the impression I got. And I was indeed a bit butthurt for her seductive demeanor, specially because it got my hopes up of finding a partner with a story for my lonely Dragonborn. She used me! :confused:

[Kayyyleb]

 

 

 

@Sisterof, that is actually part of what I have been saying and Skyrim might not even be able to defend its borders and has very little hope of invading anywhere.

Summerset Isle hasn't been faced with invasion and, in the years since the Great War, has been able to make preparations, gather intelligence and do the groundwork for an invasion of any or all of the Imperial provinces. but the AD don't need to invade yet. they are best served letting the Nords kill each other and any Imperials or Bretons who happen to be caught up in the fighting.

they are in no hurry as they get stronger while the Empire and Skyrim get weaker.

 

 

There are three passes, choke points that the AD would have to pass through in order to get into Skyrim. The Stormcloaks show they know how to use guerrilla tactics, so the AD has to chase the guerrillas through the jagged, rocky, steep, ice-covered, mountains and face the harshest climate, winter wise, in Tamriel and fight an uphill battle. If they were to get into the pass the Nords could blockade the pass with just a few soldiers, like Thermopylae, aka the Spartan 300. Or the Nords could block off the pass with an avalanche or rocks, then ambush the elves and either wipe them out or severely weaken them. Or they could cut them off from their supply lines and starve them out. Its not like the world we live in, borders can be crossed, so the Nords could attack the elves in the passes from the other side.

The AD has to do nothing of the sort. You don't conquer a country by chasing small bands of annoyances around in the mountain. You siege and capture their cities and force them to fight on your terms. The elves aren't idiots and are not going to go walking into ambushes and fighting on unfavorable terrain when a very simple alternative is available. Besides, setting up a phalanx in a mountain pass works great until the elves start throwing fireballs into your formations. Immobile, tightly-grouped formations of the sort used to block off choke points are highly vulnerable to such attacks.

 

I daresay if I were an AD commander, taking the mountain passes would be by far the easiest place to crush them and exactly where I'd want them to bottle up. I'd just march into Skyrim on the charred corpses of the Nords who thought we'd just mindless throw ourselves at them. Destruction magic is far less effective in a wide open battlefield, so I'd be fighting all my battles in mountain passes or sieges where I have the advantage and the Nords can't maneuver.

 

 

On the way through the pass the Nords could harass the AD's army. Decreasing Moral and picking them off little by little. This wouldnt be all the forces of the Nords. And I would imagine the AD wouldnt be so foolish as to send all their forces into one pass.

 

Aside from in game logistics, the Nords have shown in the past that they have a formidable military. So if they AD makes it threw the passes they wont be able to just take a city so easily. And maneuvering siege machines through the passes wont be so easy, considering how narrow they are, the guerrillas could simply destroy the machines and keep the elves from making them.Plus using siege machines in a pass would be highly ineffective.

 

The Nords know how to block magic with a shield. Not completely but it lessons the force of the magic being put onto the Nords. It is a skill in game and can be taught. Plus the Nords arent incapable of learning magic, as much as they dislike it. The "Heroic Nord Legions" were not annihilated during the war, if it were so easy to kill them with magic, how then, did they survive and defeat the elven forces. They did meat "Stiff resistance" but prevailed.

 

This is all assuming that the elves do, indeed, have an army ready to invade.

Harass them with what and how? Pockets of archers in the cliffs? Shoot fireballs or better yet lighting at them. Problem solved. You can't use a shield and a bow at the same time and Nords don't use wards so they have no defense against it.

 

If you think the Nords have a formidable military you're heavily underestimating the AD. Nords are big barbarians mostly with two-handed axes and swords and no battlemages thanks to their arrogant and foolish disregard of war magic. Elves have tons of battlemages in addition to footsoldiers giving them a huge advantage in troop quality. Some Nords can block magic with a shield. I find it quite a stretch to presume every common farmer who's drafted into the army during a time of war is going to know this, so this is more of a professional soldier's skill. All the professional soldiers who would know this would be the Legionnaires who the Nords brilliantly ousted from Skyrim putting them in this mess since until the rebellion the Legion was the only professional standing army outside of the AD. Sure, a lot of Stormcloaks were former Imperials, but a good chunk of them will have died off in the Civil War even if they won. Plus the Nord shields are poorly designed for blocking fireballs anyways. Small round (mostly wooden) shields are exceptionally pathetic for shield walls compared to the large rectangular shields employed by the Romans. Even if a fireball is directly blocked, it'll still spray fire all around the surrounding area. A single fireball can break a phalanx if it makes it past the shield anyways, because it doesn't matter how gung-ho a man is, he's not going to keep his shield arm up with his face on fire. One man waving and screaming at the front of a formation makes a great spot to focus more magic into and a chain reaction begins and the formation collapses. If I were an AD general, I'd be throwing flammable oil at the Nords to amplify the effect. Throw some jars of oil on top of the shield wall then fireball it and that oil pours into the ranks and behind the shields. Essentially the Nords are fighting in a literal hellfire while I sit back and pummel them with fire until they're all fried or run off.

 

Long story short, if you want to hold a mountain pass against the AD you'd damn well better hope I'm not in charge of the elves...they have way more and far superior tactical options available than the Nords. No, you do not want to fight in a pass.

 

Then for siege weapons and sabotage: build the siege weapons in the middle of the camp and post guards at all hours. No more worrying about guerrillas destroying siege weapons.

 

Now another point. Manpower. Skyrim fought and bled in the Great War then went home and started a Civil War. They're pretty much well and depleted on troops for the time being. The AD had a devastating defeat at Red Ring but since then they've been sitting back and rebuilding while the humans are tearing each other apart, it's a safe bet to say the AD can field more troops and with the long elven lifespans, professional, well-trained, battle-hardened and experienced troops at that.

 

After writing out all of that I just thought of how amazing chain lightning would be against a tight formation of shield-toting Nords with nicely conductive steel armor. Yeah, no matter how you look at this magic > Nords.

[TheLoreSeeker]

 

Saadia. Because without going to much in depth, if you turn her over, while it's true Klindathu does paralyze her, wait say... one to two days later and then visit Whiterun Hall of the Dead. There's a burial urn sitting on the shelf with Saadia's ashes. Kilc Tac Toe lied. Go to the cave and he explains it was a rival family that wanted her dead. It was *never* their intention to take Saadia back to Hammerfell for trial.

 

 

Is this an April Fools joke Sithis? I don't EVER remember any of this happening.

[MightyZ0G]

one thing to remember when using Thermopylae as an example of how the Stormcloaks could defend Skyrim against the Dominion is that it wasn't a force of just 300 Spartans, it was a force led by 300 Spartans and upwards of 5000 others from the alliance of Greek City States.

it is also worth remembering that the Spartan led army was pretty much wiped.

 

the Dominion wouldn't have to rely on a traitorous Nord telling them about other smaller passes that would allow them to encircle the Nords to attack from the rear. Thalmor agents have been opereating in Skyrim and have a great deal intelligence to work with when choosing where to mount invasions.

 

and you keep on saying that Hammerfell won't just let the Dominion march to the borders of Skyrim. that is totally irrelevent. the Dominion doesn't need to go through Hammerfell and it is unlikely that the Redguards will march out to Cyrodiil and High Rock to stop them as that would leave Hammerfell unprotected.

saying that the Dominion would have trouble capturing the forts in Cyrodiil and High Rock from bandits and brigands that have moved in following the collapse of the Empire is rubbish.

we are talking about a massive invading army, not a small patrol. the bandits won't stand a chance.

 

also, while the Nords are preparing to defend against the Dominion they will also have to deal with Forsworn using guerilla tactics against the Nords.

[ShannonRutherford]

Red & Blue, both are garbage. Why there is no option to make them get peace with each other or rooth them both out???

[sisterof]

Red & Blue, both are garbage. Why there is no option to make them get peace with each other or rooth them both out???

Well, that's solved, folks. Let's all go home. :wink:

 

I prayed to each of the Divines, Talos included obviously, for a chance to show Ulfric the dossier on him and start a quest to secretly unify Stormcloaks and Imperials to beat the Thalmor in their own game of subversion, but alas! None of them heard my plea. Rooting both out is just wrong, though. Both sides have excellent points, and huge weaknesses, but regardless of what one thinks of their leadership, the foot soldier is just fighting for his ideals or for his job.

 

Our quest here is to bring forth the pros and cons of each side, which I still defend are weighted about the same, though my "there is no right side" stance is swaying a bit lately as I replay a few missions of both sides. Another important thing this thread provides is a background for both Imperial and Stormcloak characters, because every player should have at least one of each regardless of their personal preferences, in my not-so-humble opinion, and should have enough arguments to make the character believable for themselves. So it's not an useless debate.

 

Bethesda didn't give the option because lol eff u. It will be part of the lore that the Empire becomes weakened, be it by internal conflicts or complete dissolution, as it has been building up in the past two games. Resolution to this crumbling of the Empire is something we'll only get in a DLC or in a next game (and may the Gods forbid that we get some ridiculous scheme like having a game set in the past). So, it's not in their interests to solve the issue quickly and let us drink our mead peacefully reminiscing our glorious and tumultuous past.