Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Sianama]

What I don't like about the Jarl of Winterhold (Korir, I think is his name?) is that he keeps rambling and rambling about how his family is the only family that still cares about Winterhold at all and that it's all the College's fault and he is going to prove it one day. No thought about the College being the only thing that still makes his town worth noting at all, that keeps money in the pocket of his citizens. No word about his citizens holding on through dire times, no, he and his family are the only worthy people there. Ofc like all rough talking people in the game, he gets a little 'softer' when you do him a favor, but I simply found his attitude somehow ..lacking.

 

I quite like Thongvor too, altough I usually have a faint feeling that his being Jarl won't change things for the Silver-Blood employees for the better. One dialogue between him and Reburrus is about silver and Reburrus complains, that the profits have been going down lately and Thongvor simply says, he's going to talk to his brother about it. And I thought: oh oh.

But on the other hand, things weren't good under Igmund either, he didn't care about anything, be it dragons or Forsworn (only the ones that murdered his father) or the circumstances under which his people live, and at least Thongvor waited a long time for his chance to be Jarl, so maybe he is going to put some effort into it after all :)

 

Maven in my eyes is one of the most disgusting people that live in Skyrim. She makes her own grandson a murderer, she kills her employees for simply not being perfect in their job (which you find out by thalking to Ungrien) and she has real ties to the Thalmor, even exceeding Vicci's or Elisif's or whoever else is at the party. She is the only one who threatens to give you over to them there, if you talk to her. She runs around Riften threatening people (Haelga for example, she says that her face won't be so pretty anymore if she doesn't stay away from Heming), tells her son (Heming) to beat people up, tries to get Brand-Shei into jail for standing up to her and so on. And ofc most criminals are firmly in her hands.

Plus her power is not limited to the Rift or even Skyrim, as Sibbi points out, her arm is much longer. That is what could make her valuable for Skyrim in a war, but it might just as well be, that she will prove to be a major problem.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Hey guys. Im have some free time and thought I would pop in and say hi.

 

RightHandofSithis - I was wondering where you went old friend, good to hear from you again.

 

This is a quote from Sun Tzu -

 

"Now when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted, and your treasure spent. Other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue." - Art of War

 

Now to analyze this in comparison of the empire -

 

Weapons dulled - military force weakened - Imperial legions depleted

 

Ardor Dampened - Energy depleted - Losing the will to fight

 

Strength Exhausted - Military force stretched thin - Keeping the peace in Cyrodiil

 

Your Treasure Spent - Imperial coffers emptied to pay soldiers and buy off the Jarls of Skyrim and pay tribute to the Aldmeri Dominion

 

Other Chieftains - Ulfric and the Jarls backing him

 

Then no man, however wise, May be able to etc. etc. - The emperor and Tullius

 

This may or may not be relevant to the current topic undergoing the critique of my fellows but Its a point I wanted to make nonetheless.

[TheLoreSeeker]

Korir's problem is that he wants to blame the collapse on the Mage's because he's afraid of them. He's looking for a scapegoat and they just so happen to be the strangest and most vulnerable people to place the blame upon. Truthfully.....accepting the college would be better for him and his hold. He'd have them as allies rather than a neutral party.

Thongvor....has always confused me. At first I had no love for Igmund and was like "Oh yeah, replacing this guy makes perfect sense." But then Thongvor made some off hand comments about enslaving the Forsworn for the Silver-Bloods and my hopes for Markarth went straight down the toilet.

Maven. Now that's a tricky situation. Either way, it can't be denied that Maven Black-Briar is pretty much the ruler of Riften, no matter who you side with. She's a ruthless, heartless b****.....but she understands money and power. The chance that Riften will prosper under her direct leadership is good because she controls all aspects of the economy. Downside is....Riften will be in the hands of Maven...and although I don't "like" Leila (seeing as how her very first conversation with her steward entails her "escape plan" in case the city comes under attack) I don't necessarily want Maven to "win".

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

I like Leila because she tries to help Riften, Maven, to me, seems more concerned with her own political gain, she is seen at Elenwens party and is just a bad person, although ambitious and powerful.

 

Thongvor Silver Blood, although he is somewhat extreme, he is a good Jarl, far better than Igmund. Although I am sure all of us agree that slavery is not good, Im glad to see that he will be, undoubtedly dealing with the Forsworn. The same can be said for the Silver-Bloods being in charge of Markarth, they own the Guards, and half the city. But they are not doing it for political immunity and gain. Well, Thongvor isnt anyway, his brother Im not so sure about. Thongvor is a good Jarl and a good man.

 

Jarl Korir, I like his mind set of trying to help Winterhold, but I wish he would except the college and get over blaming them when the collapse wasnt their fault. When I first talked to Tsun he said "Well met, mage of Skyrim. The Nords may have forgotten their forefathers' respect for the Clever Craft, but your comrades throng this hall. Here in Shor's house we honor it still." And that made me realize that the college is one of Skyrims best attributes.

Edited April 11, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[Sianama]

Leila, Igmund, Skald, Siddgeir are the Jarls that have lost touch with 'common people' in my eyes. I don't even neccessarily mean, they'll have to be all nice and gooddie to them, just... knowing their complaints, knowing their hardships, knowing who got killed and looking into it. If not for their people then at least for their own power.

Siddgeir is special even among them, he says himself, that he has no interest in ruling whatsoever, he just wants the benefits of an easy life.

But Leila for example. She trusts Maven and her Steward blindly, without ever looking into things herself or even sending someone to see if everything's alright. I came across one scene, where she suggests going outside, talking to people, showing herself and somehow letting them know she is there and cares, but Anuiel (or whatever her Steward is called) talks her out of it at once, saying there's imperial spies everywhere, who'd want to kill her and if not them, then the dragons, so Leila gives in and decides to stay inside. That's when I thought, she might indeed have it in her (despite her get away-carriage-thing, which ... I can't even find the words for it >.< ), but surrounds herself with all the wrong people.

Igmund sits on his throne, doing nothing. Listens to his guards (who work for Thonar) who tell him all is in order there are no Forsworn in the city and never looks into it himself. Not even when his uncle _and_ Faleen point out to him, that he should. He doesn't even care how many innocents get sent to the mines. He doesn't care why so many people rather join the Forsworn than keep living in the Warrens. Do you think he knows what it looks like there? I don't think so. Even if he doesn't care for his Breton population, he should at least take care to not fan the fire for another uprising or rather not fuel the one that's already going on. But he doesn't even seem to know how dire the situation is. And that is ignorance at it's finest and I don't think any ruler can afford that.

And Skald... well, I guess he is a case of having been born as a Jarl-to-be, too. And he is rash in his words and in his actions. He doesn't think it through and in my opinion he doesn't come across as someone who ever learned to think things through. But the only thing that might prove dangerous with him is, if he indeed carries on with killing giants after he has sent you to kill the first one. I mean, everybody else just leaves the giants alone, in Eastmarch there is even a note haning on apost, telling wanderers and traders to stay away and not bother the giant (can't remember the name of the camp), he has been granted the official right to reside right there and be left in peace. And the guards in Whiterun tell you to behave at Secunda's Kiss. Sure, you are sometimes being sent to giant camps, but not for the sole reason to show them 'who is in charge here and the Nords won't put up with them' like Skald does. Everything else in his Hold seems quite alright, I guess people are glad, he doesn't care too much, cause he'd just mess things up ^^

 

As I said before, if Skyrim could afford the time needed for that, I'd think it best to replace most of the Jarls with people that might actually lead and think while doing it. As we can't do that, not only because we are never given the choice, but because I think that the Thalmor will not wait for Skyrim to settle and all new Jarls to get used to their task. So experienced people are needed.

But the reason why I, even though I do not think the Stormcloaks are right in everything they say or do (but neither are the Imperials), I favor the Stormcloaks. They wash through the country, they are a wake up call, they get the Jarls out of their comfy thrones. I hope when Galmar starts training men and women for the army he intends to build up for the fight against the Dominion, he kicks some still sitting Jarl-butts too.

And I think with another war at hand (something that not even Tullius denies) it is bad to make the last country you have left pay for all the government in Cyrodiil. The organisation and the logistics of a nation as big as the Empire used to be comes at a price, which is bureaucracy. And that is expensive. Cyrodiil can't afford it anymore, but all the people in high places still want their money (not only in Cyrodiil, but also the imperials in Skyrim). Mankind doesn't need bureaucrats right now, it needs quick thinking and adapting people. People who act without being paid if need be (or even if being paid less maybe^^). People who are aware of the looming threat and don't foolishly keep playing their games at the expense of everyone only to further their own agenda. If an Amaud Motierre can afford to pay 20k in to kill the Emperor in the face of the looming threat of an Aldmeri invasion, then the lesson of the Great War has not been learned. Even Ulfric tells you not to make a move against the Emperor, as much as he would like to see the man dead. I think Ulfric is right when he says, Skyrim is mankind's only chance in the coming war, because Cyrodiil has gone back to its comfortable, bureaucratic slumber and will be too slow and too surprised to react when it all starts. And it is probably not only mankind's only chance, but the only chance for everyone who doesn't want to be ruled by the Dominion, which I'd say includes a fair share of High Elves too (Lathenil of Sunhold anyone?^^).

[Sianama]

'The Reachmen' kill their own freaking people. The Nords should acknowledge them more and finally learn their lesson too, about why so many Reachmen feel the need to fight, but as long as the Forsworn carry on killing their own, I don't know if that many Reachmen would want to be free of the Nords. Come to better terms with the Nord? Sure. But be ruled by Hagravens? Surely not!

 

Even though that fight has some astounding similarities to the rebellion against the Empire. If only they'd see. ^^

[TheLoreSeeker]

The issue with the Forsworn is that they only became the Forsworn after the Markarth Incident. Before that they were just normal guerrilla rebels.

The alchemist in Markarth explains this. She calls them fools that break her heart because they've let it go so far. They've devolved into a crazy hill-tribe culture because they had no leadership and were up against a wall grasping for power to defend themselves. So essentially each little group of Forsworn is leading themselves. With Madanach free, I had hoped he'd be able to unite his people....but he seems just as bent on revenge as anyone.

[TheLoreSeeker]

As for Siddgeir....yeah he's a worthless piece of crap. But....as it has been stated, he doesn't give a crap about running his hold...and all that stuff is handled by his steward Nenya. She is an elf yes...but she was Dengeir's steward too, and seems to be focused on the well being of the people.


Dengeir is one of the jarls that disappointed me the a lot. I was all for him until I started to notice that he may in fact be getting senile like they say. And if not senile...at least paranoid. Poor Lod and Tekla....they were super loyal to Dengeir and the old man didn't even take that into account when he accused them of being spies. Essentially he just doesn't trust the people he should rely on.

[Sianama]

I had a little headache about Dengeir becoming Jarl at first too. Because, well, he was paranoid and I felt bad for Lod and Thekla. But once he becomes Jarl again, there is no more talk of this. Not at all. He says, he knows Ulfric is probably not as selfless as he claims to be and has his own agenda too, but for him that agenda seems better than what the Empire could do. He is glad, that he can now do the best for his people again, because what his nephew forgot was that it's the Jarl serving his people not vice-versa. And he makes Thekla his Steward. I was very surprised :)

But Nenya sure was fine too. I'm not at odds with her being an elf, I usually play elves (yes, even as Stormcloak ;) ). Even Galmar accepts it, when you tell him that Skyrim is home to "more than just Nords" ^^

 

As for the Reachmen: Ever listened to the prisoners' stories? None of them says a word about Ulfric. They say it was the Jarl who ordered the executions and the imprisonment. I'm not saying Ulfric didn't do anything or is an innocent lamb, but that Bear of Markarth book is so full of contradictions in itself, I just can't believe a word in it. And if you then listen around and talk to people, it becomes even more suspicious.

And I don't think Cedran for example would be ok with the Hagravens. He explicitly states that that is the road to ruin. I didn't mean only the Nords were not ok with that, but can you imagine Cedran, Ainetach, Rhiada or Enmon being willingly ruled by Hagravens? I can't. Madanach claims 'their fight is the fight of the people' but that's not true. Or do you think Eltrys' father was not a Reachman?

[TheLoreSeeker]

As for the Reachmen: Ever listened to the prisoners' stories? None of them says a word about Ulfric. They say it was the Jarl who ordered the executions and the imprisonment. I'm not saying Ulfric didn't do anything or is an innocent lamb, but that Bear of Markarth book is so full of contradictions in itself, I just can't believe a word in it. And if you then listen around and talk to people, it becomes even more suspicious.

And I don't think Cedran for example would be ok with the Hagravens. He explicitly states that that is the road to ruin. I didn't mean only the Nords were not ok with that, but can you imagine Cedran, Ainetach, Rhiada or Enmon being willingly ruled by Hagravens? I can't. Madanach claims 'their fight is the fight of the people' but that's not true. Or do you think Eltrys' father was not a Reachman?

 

You lost me. Who said anything about Ulfric?...And whether or not the Bear of Markarth can be used as evidence, that won't eliminate the fact that the Markarth Incident did in fact happen.

 

The Reachmen still in Markarth make it plain that the Forsworn are "lost", they aren't what they once stood for. And like I said...I had hoped that Madanach would chill them out and unite them again...but they seem to all be scattered and crazy now...and Madanach has sworn to kill all the Nords.