Imperial VS Stormcloak

[MightyZ0G]

as all the evidence for both sides is circumstantial and hearsay I base my reasoning on several things.

first,at the start of the game, Hadvar expresses doubts that you should be under arrest and is hesitant about having you executed but is over ruled.

then, when all the excitement starts, Ulfric and Ralof leave you bound even though all the other prisoners have been released and have found weapons but at the first opportunity that presents itself, Hadvar sets you free and gives you a weapon and armour.

(siding with Hadvar also gives you a nice boost to your inventory in the way of iron and steel ingots that Alvor will let you take from around the forge).

 

the Jarls who back the Empire generally seem to be more concerned with the people of Skyrim than those whose loyalties lie with the Stormcloaks and on the whole are much more likeable and have earnt the respect they get.

they also turn a blind eye to continuing worship of Talos and also see that another war with the Dominion is inevitable.

 

then there is the Thalmor report on Ulfric which briefly states that they are using him and the Stormcloak rebellion to weaken the Empire but not to assist him so that the civil war is prolonged. (this also hints that the whole rebellion was engineered by the Thalmor which would be the crowning irony if the rebellion is the reason that the Dominion finally conquers all of Tamriel)

 

that is all I need to know to make a decision as to which side to join.

Edited March 28, 2013 by mighty zog

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Welcome to the Forum. Please Read Lithium Flower's documents in his signature. It is a synthesis of all our arguments. Both Imperial And Stormcloak.

 

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Ralof does the same as Hadvar, you just probably havent followed him. They both go the Riverwood and give you boosts.

 

 

 

The Imperial Jarls are corrupt and bought into complacency.

 

- Igmund allows the Thalmor to roam freely in the Reach

 

- Sidgeir is more concerned about making money than his people

 

- Maven Black Briar basically owns the Thieves Guild

 

- Brunwulf Free Winter doesnt do anything to help the Argonians and doesnt seem to help the Dunmer.

 

- Idgrod Raven Crone is more interested in her visions

 

- Elisif is incompetent and in over her head

 

- Balgruuf attempts to remain neutral but gives in to the Imperials and sides with them.

 

- Brina Merilis is good.

 

- Kralder is a gossip

 

 

 

So the Jarls are not any better, they are much worse.

 

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Another war with the Dominion is inevitable but the Empire is incapable of winning. It will collapse. Now on the Empire dying. It has taken its first steps into an irreversible spiral of collapse. Civil unrest, economic instability, internal power struggles, drug problems, in fighting, rebellions and riots. So the Empire is unable to continue, if they war with the dominion again it will mean the end of the Empire.

 

We do actually have proof that Cyrodiil is experiencing strife, crime and banditry. It is stated by several NPC's that Cyrodiil is experiencing all these things. "I escaped fighting in Cyrodiil, only to have it track me down here in Skyrim." And Cicero also claims that the province is needing to deal with a large list of troubles.

 

 

"27th of Hearthfire, 4E 188. The situation in Bravil grows more dire. The city has erupted in violence, due to a war of control being waged by Cyrodiil's two largest skooma traffickers. The Listener, Alisanne Dupre, has been forced to employ sellswords to protect her own residence."

 

"1st of Hearthfire, 4E 189. Cheydinhal has erupted into violence and chaos, like so many other cities before it. The Sanctuary has remained unbreached, but for how long? Our numbers are few, and with no Speaker, the contracts have dwindled almost to nothingness. Rasha's hold on the Sanctuary is slipping."

 

There's no evidence to be had that shows that Cicero hates or is biased against the Empire or Cyrodiil. Therefore this is an unbiased perspective on the events in Cyrodiil.

 

Several cities are experiencing large amounts of violence. So Cyrodiil is in a dire situation. And where is the legion to keep the peace? It's on the border with the dominion and in Skyrim fighting the Nords. Brina Merilis also says "The legion is spread thin trying to keep the peace." The legion is in Skyrim, not to protect the Nord people but to secure the resources in Skyrim to help the legion and the Empire. So thats a main reason why I hate the Empire now, why I refuse to side with them.

 

 

So the legion is unable to save its capitol province.

Edited March 28, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[fraquar]

Think about it, none of the Stormcloaks would have been allowed to keep their weapons as bound prisoners either, yet Ralof and every Stormcloak is "kitted out" once they reach the keep. Long Bow, check. Axe, check.

 

The real question should be how did Ulfric, Ralof and the rest of the Stormcloaks get unbound in the mere seconds that transpired - and that answer would be the same as the one above.......

 

It makes ZERO sense - hardly a point even worth considering choosing sides over.

[sisterof]

Hey guys! I think the Imperial document is a good start but should be re-written by an actual Imperial, not a Stormcloak. It's a good effort on behalf of a Stormcloak but it's written from a "Oh well and this is what they think perspective." If it's going to be taken seriously, it must be re-written by an Imperial. Good job on the Stormcloak one though. Personally, I'm a little concerned that in doing this document, the Stormcloaks are trying to prevent certain talking points from being challenged. I mean, all the DLCs aren't in yet, we don't really know that the Empire is dieing, we don't know what the state of all Cyrodil really is. This seems like a way, without offending anyone, for you guys to just deny the argument. I dunno, I remember when I thought that all of Morrowind had been conquered by the Argonians and that was not true. Same with these documents. Again, it was well - written. However, I think it's wrong to start denying discussion(s) from the other side because you guys have made up your minds that "This is how it is." Sometimes you can be wrong. Just saying.

 

Although I have yet to really choose either side, leaning towards the Imperials. :biggrin:

Welcome to the discussion! I'd like to point out again (as I did before, but nobody reads all posts anyway) that I too think that both documents should be roughly the same size, but we aren't receiving much input from Imperial supporters for some reason. I do think there is no right side or better side - and I think that every player may have different characters with different loyalties. The documents are supposed to give basis for either kind of character. And also, they're not meant to kill debate - but rather avoid that newcomers keep going over the same points everyone did 10 pages ago, so the older users don't have to keep repeating themselves - both Imperial and Stormcloak supporters. Also note that the docs are free to edit (it's not something that belongs to this person or that person), so hopefully we will get Imperials to put theirs to the same level as the Stormcloak one.

 

I, for one, don't believe at all in "convincing" people to choose this side or the other. What I am guilty of, though, is of kinda looking down on people who get passionate about their arguments without the ability to recognize both sides are not heroic, and neither side has a better chance to win against the Thalmor. Bethesda made the Civil War quest precisely like this - you can't play the hero as there is no villain, it's a civil war, you can at most play your character's beliefs and hope for the best. I also find it strange when people defend either side as people - by which I mean, "I, the player, hate the Empire". That makes no sense. That's something a character can do, and you can roleplay. And I'm aware I'm being a judgemental assbutt. Alas! :biggrin:

 

 

 

As for the "everyone is unbound"... I think it's just gameplay issue. They didn't want to add an extra cutscene showing everyone getting rid of bounds. Or maybe the player character blacked out for longer than we think. That introduction quest was quite more about the awesomeness than about reasonable occurrences. You have THE Rebel Leader, THE General, THE Thalmor Ambassador, and the friggin' greatest Dragon ever with no explanation (all hypothesis of Alduin's presence are purely things players came up with, not backed by ingame sources). I think they just wanted a BOOM! Welcome to Skyrim! feel.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Actually Alduin shows up because he feels the presence of the Dovahkiin and attempts to kill you right off the bat. But as we know he fails. But anyway thats his reason for showing up to save the day.

 

Edited March 28, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[sisterof]

Actually Alduin shows up because he feels the presence of the Dovahkiin and attempts to kill you right off the bat. But as we know he fails. But anyway thats his reason for showing up to save the day.

 

That is an hypothesis, not something said in the game.

Besides, no other Dragon seems aware of the Dovahkiin, and Alduin never tries to find him again. It's not even said how the hell Alduin emerged in the Time Wound and Paarthurnax still lives.

[TheLoreSeeker]

I always assumed that he just sort of popped back into time and flew down the mountain to blast the first town he saw....Helgen.

[TheLoreSeeker]

Also guys...Its kind of obvious why there isn't any lasting Imperial support. Y'all come on too strong.

 

Look at the last few posters who came in to voice their opinions on the Empire. Each on was greeted with essentially:

 

Hi, welcome to the topic!

Have you read Lithium's documents?

This is why everything you said is wrong.

*bam proof bam proof bam proof*

 

It's not that you're wrong in arguing your point....it's that you're all too much of a challenge for a new debater to take up. I explained this when I first popped into the topic. It's easier for new debaters to argue their points to a neutral crowd or at least a "open minded" one. Since you guys have all taken your sides, now it has become a defend your viewpoints type thing, rather than an accept new viewpoints one.

Edited March 28, 2013 by TheLoreSeeker

[sisterof]

Eh, I think they were greeted quite warmly. Maybe the Imperial supporters just don't care about organizing arguments? Which is a pity, I can't think of many arguments for them either, though I do want them to jump in. :confused: If one side seems "victorious", we're missing something.

[TheLoreSeeker]

No no I agree that they were greeted warmly and it generally seemed like you guys want them to stay. But it just jumped into debating their points too quickly. Y'all gotta eaaaaaase into it...else you'll probably just scare them off.