Imperial VS Stormcloak

[sisterof]

Oh okay. <lowers oversized battleaxe and erases warpaint> Sorry for that. :biggrin: Maybe brushing my hair too would help. Oh, and washing off some of this blood. Erm.. mead for everyone?
Maybe we just need to wait for the next wave of newcomers to arrive. Or hope the last one wasn't too terrified. :ermm:

[MightyZ0G]

don't be too worried about jumping into the debate after saying "hi"

 

as for the 2 documents, I didn't bother reading them but probably will at some point, but it doesn't matter how much each contains. what matters is what they contain.

a simple truth doesn't need pages and pages to state or prove :D

 

anyway, back to the points.

I know that Ralof gives you weapons and armour if you follow him into the keep (which is the same point in game time that Hadvar releases you and gives you weapons and armour), but my point is that Ralof could have done that earlier when you reach the first tower. Ralof didn't do anything when he could have but Hadvar did as soon as he could.

whether that is purely down to the game necessitating that you are a helpless captive until that point or whether it is scripted to be like that is irrelevent. it is how I see it and what my character should react to.

 

also, if you follow Ralof, you can't take the iron or steel ingots from the forge as you don't get permission to help yourself to things from there ;)

 

I've played through a few times and the character I had when I first read the Thalmor document about Ulfric decided to join the Legion purely because of that.

the Thalmor engineered the whole Stormcloak rebellion to keep the Empire busy and stop it from rebuilding.

siding with the Stormcloaks is helping the Dominion and true Sons and Daughters of Skyrim should have nothing to do with that

 

the Empire was created by Talos so true Nords should want to remain within the Empire and change it from within (possibly with a new Nord Emeror seeing that the Imperial Throne is vacant) rather than destroy something that the Mighty Talos created

[Tidus44]

Sort of bored today and wandered through this thread.

 

I would think that the majority of players have seen the brilliance of the story and the way it has been presented by the game developers. Simply, the developers hijack emotions.

 

Individuals typically make up their mind about what is "right" and what is "wrong" regarding a situation based on a number of pieces of information. When the information is incomplete, open to interpretation and/or contradictory, how does one make a reasoned decision or choice? The way a choice is made can be a significant factor and can provide some explanation as to the passion one sees within a discussion.

The situations in Skyrim are sufficiently ambiguous to make a clear, reasoned choice improbable, hence, individuals make their choices more so on an emotional level. With inadequate information, but with the necessity to make a decision, individuals will go with what they feel rather than what they know.

Skyrim pushes a good number of the "buttons" that compel individuals to make an emotional choice and there is no denying that aspects of the game were deliberately established to evoke an emotional response, and in some aspects, a strong emotional response.

 

I would think most players realize that there is no right or wrong choices to be made in the game. Considering that pretty much any factor for one side has a counterpoint from the other, they understand the purpose of the intentionally established conflict is only to provide choices; choices that are entirely individual and based more on how one feels than what one knows. The choices are a means to allow a somewhat different story, not to influence one way or another. There is no "right" or "wrong", just choices.

 

What I do find fascinating however is the reasoning within the discussions. There seems to be a significant amount of speculation, imagination, subjective interpretation and even fantasy. This isn't entirely unexpected as most individuals have extreme difficulty in changing their emotional state. They are also driven by need to have their choice seen as "right" or "correct" and thus any counter information is interpreted subjectively or simply dismissed or ignored. It is unarguable that there is insufficient facts or evidence to develop a comprehensive knowledge of anyone or any situation within the game. The player is given incomplete information that may or may not be correct (rumor mostly), contradictory information and even more critically, given information that can be interpreted in different ways depending on other information they have, or perhaps more importantly have not, learned.

Obviously, not many are immune to the emotional hijack given this thread's length.

 

Since I don't play the game emotionally, but to see how differently it can be played, I don't specifically worry about the choices I may make in any given play through. Imperial/Stormcloak doesn't matter - neither choice is important - game play is what is important and thankfully one can play making different choices. I do admit though that I still find myself torn between liking and disliking Ulfric, simply because the night before I got the game I watched The 13th Warrior. Just how easily we can be hijacked.

 

Skyrim's story is entertaining and quite fascinating in how it was done when one thinks about it. And I do enjoy reading the various posts and seeing the reasoning that individuals place upon their choices.

[sisterof]

I'm not sure people can be that passionate as to fall for what you call "emotional hijack" - it actually takes a lot of effort to get into Skyrim emotionally. With such a sub-par writing when it comes to most quests and all dialogue, it takes a lot of imagination and willingness to be taken in by the story. I'm a big fan of getting lost in fiction, and I confess it took me more than a year to actually care about Skyrim. I played several quests, had some minor fun, spoke against the game being named "game of the year" in several occasions and also got pretty annoyed at it being called RPG because of the shitty writing. It's only been a few months since I mustered enough suspension of disbelief + enough imagination to make the game engaging.

 

Otherwise, Skyrim is a pretty mechanical game. Talk to person, go to quest marker, kill every living creature around it, fetch object, rinse and repeat ad infinitum. I cannot fathom how one can be amused by the game without investing a hell lot of their own imagination into it. The game itself gives very little.

I quite agree with you, Tidus44. There are no right or wrong choices and Bethesda was very bright to make the Civil War very ambiguous. They throw in very little information about it, just as they do with the nature of the Dragonbon. Maybe because they can't come up with something good enough, maybe because they really want us to fill in the spaces. Don't call your swaying because of that movie "hijacking". Call it inspiration! :biggrin: Skyrim is so much better if we can forge emotional complexity for our characters and put ourselves in their shoes for those hours of gameplay. Now dragging the character's opinions outside the game is a whole different matter indeed.

[Tidus44]

Actually, it is exceedingly easy to emotionally hijack someone. Insult them. They will respond, usually in kind, almost before they think because it is a natural reaction to defend oneself once threatened. Even if they don't respond outwardly, they will have responded internally - usually with the ultimate comeback. Doesn't matter, they were hijacked.

The threat need not be insulting or physical, just sufficient enough to cause the individual to raise a defense. Skyrim does not specifically insult an individual, but it certainly contains elements that were deliberately established to cause an emotional reaction and/or raise a defense. Pretty much every person who played the game was emotionally jerked around right from the first activity of being potentially beheaded for no reason other than being present. If that did not incite an emotional response on one's sense of fairness, then... I tip my hat to them for being more emotionless than the average human and would only ask if both their parents are Vulcan as well.

 

An emotional hijack doesn't require one to deeply love or passionately hate or to be even emotionally involved in the game to elicit an emotional response. With no clearly defined information, an individual will choose what they are comfortable with, which is not a reasoned response, but an emotional one. I doubt even the most jaded player in their first play through studied the game intimately and researched varied and diverse sources of information in order to make well informed and intellectually sound decisions on any of the choices in Skyrim. They went along and with a minimum of knowledge made a choice they felt most comfortable with or at the very least, a choice against what they did not feel comfortable with. Simply, the game developers established a series of events and information that were deliberately designed to hijack the player on an emotional level. One either liked or disliked some aspect and made their choice accordingly.

 

I suppose there are those who find the game mechanical and uninspired. However, I do think the way one perceives the game is based upon the level of emotion and imagination they place into the game. I myself did not expect award winning writing with deep meaningful dialogue to entertain me. It pretty much delivered what I expected and wanted. A pretty basic game that was interesting and that would allow me to escape reality for a few hours a day and to suffer no specific consequences for my actions.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

I suppose there are those who find the game mechanical and uninspired. However, I do think the way one perceives the game is based upon the level of emotion and imagination they place into the game. I myself did not expect award winning writing with deep meaningful dialogue to entertain me. It pretty much delivered what I expected and wanted. A pretty basic game that was interesting and that would allow me to escape reality for a few hours a day and to suffer no specific consequences for my actions.

 

For me thats crap. I think "Oh Ill just play for a few hours, then I'll go lights off and hit the bunks." Then I realize it's been like almost 10 hours and I have to get up in an hour for PT.

[MightyZ0G]

personally I think Beth did a great job on the quests.

yes there is a lot of similarity in the go to marker>kill everything and/or retrieve item>return>get paid for most of the quests but they are just the outline sketch for you to fill in the detail.

the journey from the quest giver to the location is also part of the quest (this is a good reason not to fast travel) and because the locations given are scattered around, this is where the quests give variety.

 

I remember well the absolute carnage that ensued on my way back from Dustman's Cairn to Whiterun and night fell. I set up camp to sleep through the night only to wake at dawn with a bunch of giants just about to lead a herd of mammoths right through my camp.

that was a story to tell over a few meads at Jorrvaskr when we finally made it back. (admitedly a lot of that carnage was due to using some wildlife mods that added herds and so increased the number of mammoths being herded by giants, but it was epic and made a simple quest from early in the game into an experience)

 

if you think about it, even LotR is a very simple quest. take this item to a location and throw it in a volcano. you don't even need to return for the quest to complete. but LotR is about the journey, not the destination.

 

as for not being emotionally hijacked. anyone who has replied to this thread siding with either side for whatever personal reason has been hijacked.

if they hadn't they wouldn't care enough to post.

 

looking from outside the game, it doesn't make any difference which side you take in the civil war as TESVI will probably take place after the Dominion have conquered Tamriel with the lore stating that the Empire was too weak to stand against them after the Stormcloak rebellion and then the Provinces falling 1 by 1 until only Hammerfell stands against the Dominion if the Empire beat the Stormcloaks and that a divided Empire was too weak to hold back the Dominion in the event of a Stormcloak victory.

it isn't impossible for them to have TESVI look for a TESV save and see who you chose to win the war to give the starting scenario for TESVI but that isn't Beth's style.

they will start sometime after all men are slaves and you will be a prisoner of the Thalmor at the start and somehow escape to start a life of adventure and lead the uprising against the Dominion and free Tamriel (while acting as courier and general dogsbody for the people of whichever province TESVI is set in)

 

as for the original topic. Tidus is correct in his observations. we choose which side we take based on our gut feelings and we all base those feelings on different things.

some of us (myself included) think that we are basing our decisions on logic and are being rational rather than emotional about them when in reality all those "facts" are fictions put in by Bethesda to make us think like that.

 

it is exactly the same as someone not playing the thieves guild quests because they don't like the idea of stealing. it is a game and it doesn't matter when you save and quit but while it is on, some people have to behave in certain ways and make rules that don't exist within the game because of their own real life moral attitudes. others like to do just the opposite because they have the freedom to behave in ways they know are not socially acceptable in real life but there is no real consequence for it in the private universe of their game.

 

because these feelings are deep rooted, no one is going to change their mind reading through one of these threads but it is great fun taking part in them :D

[Tidus44]

For me thats crap. I think "Oh Ill just play for a few hours, then I'll go lights off and hit the bunks." Then I realize it's been like almost 10 hours and I have to get up in an hour for PT.

 

A situation that I do not think is unusual for many players and that suggests to me that some do become quite involved with the game (on a number of levels) and take a great deal of pleasure in generally wallowing in their own imagination and fantasy. I would think there are many players who look up after playing what felt like a few minutes only to realize that hours have passed.

 

If the game was as mechanical and poorly written as has been suggested by a number of persons and took effort to become involved with it, I doubt many would have played it more than a few hours before abandoning it to boredom. As said by the mighty zog, it isn't the destination - it's the journey that matters and the way one fills in the details. To be lost in a game for hours and hours, one must be placing a whole lot of details into it.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

mighty zog, on 28 Mar 2013 - 15:31, said:

mighty zog, on 28 Mar 2013 - 15:31, said:

don't be too worried about jumping into the debate after saying "hi"

 

 

the Empire was created by Talos so true Nords should want to remain within the Empire and change it from within (possibly with a new Nord Emeror seeing that the Imperial Throne is vacant) rather than destroy something that the Mighty Talos created

No, this is the Mede dynasty, Talos did not found this Empire. He founded the Septim Empire. The Septims would have never given in to the Thalmor, they would have never lost provinces, they wouldn't have lost the Great War either.

 

A True Son or Daughter of Skyrim wont give in to tyranny even if it means to stay with the Empire, in the Dossier the Thalmor say that a Stormcloak Victory is to be avoided. They want the war to continue in an indecisive fashion not one victory over the other. They didnt go to each Nord and say "Hey fight the Empire for us." They engineered it by making the Treaty that the Emperor signed, the White Gold Concordat. The Emperor played just as much a part in starting the Rebellion as anyone else.

 

Talos is Shor, the King of the Gods in the Nordic Pantheon. His is the patron god of mankind.

 

The Stormcloaks revive Talos worship and kick the Thalmor out of Skyrim.

 

Plus, Skyrim cant simply be taken over.

 

"The Emperor is getting old. Don't know how much longer he'll hang on. So is the whole Empire, for that matter. Getting old, that is. The Emperor and the legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new. What? No idea. Because I'm old. Old dog doesn't get new ideas. But maybe young folks like you should try some new ideas. I don't know. Could be messy. But change is never pretty." - Wulf (Avatar of Talos) Morrowind

 

Even Talos thinks its time for Change. This is in TES: III Morrowind.

 

 

"When misrule (Jagar Tharn) takes its place at the eight corners of the world

 

When the Brass Tower (Numidium) walks and Time is reshaped (Warp in the West)

 

When the thrice-blessed (Tribunal) fail and the Red Tower trembles (Red year)

 

When the Dragonborn Ruler loses his throne (Martin Septim dying), and the White Tower falls (Great War)

 

When the Snow Tower (The Throat of the World) lies sundered, kingless, bleeding (Civil War)

 

The World-Eater wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn." - Book of the Dragonborn

Edited March 29, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[Kayyyleb]

No, this is the Mede dynasty, Talos did not found this Empire. He founded the Septim Empire. The Septims would have never given in to the Thalmor, they would have never lost provinces, they wouldn't have lost the Great War either.

 

A True Son or Daughter of Skyrim wont give in to tyranny even if it means to stay with the Empire, in the Dossier the Thalmor say that a Stormcloak Victory is to be avoided. They want the war to continue in an indecisive fashion not one victory over the other.

 

Talos is Shor, the King of the Gods in the Nordic Pantheon. His is the patron god of mankind.

 

The Stormcloaks revive Talos worship and kick the Thalmor out of Skyrim.

 

Plus, Skyrim cant simply be taken over.

 

"The Emperor is getting old. Don't know how much longer he'll hang on. So is the whole Empire, for that matter. Getting old, that is. The Emperor and the legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new. What? No idea. Because I'm old. Old dog doesn't get new ideas. But maybe young folks like you should try some new ideas. I don't know. Could be messy. But change is never pretty." - Wulf (Avatar of Talos) Morrowind

 

Even Talos thinks its time for Change. This is in TES: III Morrowind.

You have virtually no evidence for any of these claims.

 

The Medes didn't give into the Thalmor either. They fought back with everything they had. Thus the Great War. There's nothing to back the assertion that the Septims wouldn't lose the war either. Having a different last name doesn't change jack about the performance of troops on the battlefield. There were plenty of crap Septims too so they weren't these superhuman demigods you make them out to be, but the Empire endured for centuries despite this. The emperor and especially his last name is far less relevant than you seem to think it is. If TMII was a Septim and he was forced into the same situation TMII was then how do you know things would suddenly turn out completely different? Do the Septims have the magical power to pull 10,000 troops out of a hat?

 

Since the American founding fathers who wrote our constitution are dead does that give us the right to divide the country into 50 separate entities simply because the guys that originally started it are gone? Hell no.

 

Talos, the patron god of humanity of whatever is useless. I'm sorry. During the last war all his followers banded together to fight the Thalmor and where was he? Not helping out, not doing anything at all actually. I think Talos' opinion can be disregarded. If he wants mankind to worship him then maybe he should do something to help them out so he actually deserves it.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Kayyyleb